Greetings
Ive recently come to an understanding that Arahantship is something thats already here in the moment its just we dont see it or realize it because of the defilements, i was hoping to get the Classical teaching on this (if there is one). Is this in line with Classical Theravada teachings or not?
Metta
Arahantship already here?
Arahantship already here?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Arahantship already here?
What is the basis for your understanding? Knowing that, it would help to respond to what you are asking.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hello clw_uk.
How did you come to this understanding? Which teachings in Theravada triggered it?
metta
Chris
How did you come to this understanding? Which teachings in Theravada triggered it?
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27858
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arahantship already here?
Greetings Craig,
Arahantship is the permanent eradication of greed, aversion or delusion.
Moments in which these factors are not present could rightly be called vipassana (seeing things as they really are) but there is nothing permanent about this.
Not that it's relevant to Classical Theravada (though it may be related to the confusion, as far as I can tell) the Zen tradition often takes moments of "seeing things as they really are" as 'enlightenment' even though they too will concede such 'enlightenment' is temporary.
Metta,
Retro.
Arahantship is the permanent eradication of greed, aversion or delusion.
Moments in which these factors are not present could rightly be called vipassana (seeing things as they really are) but there is nothing permanent about this.
Not that it's relevant to Classical Theravada (though it may be related to the confusion, as far as I can tell) the Zen tradition often takes moments of "seeing things as they really are" as 'enlightenment' even though they too will concede such 'enlightenment' is temporary.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hello Retro,
metta
Chris
Do you mean, these 'moments' though not related to Classical Theravada, are related to Modern Theravada?Not that it's relevant to Classical Theravada (though it may be related to the confusion, as far as I can tell) the Zen tradition often takes moments of "seeing things as they really are" as 'enlightenment' even though they too will concede such 'enlightenment' is temporary.
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27858
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arahantship already here?
Greetings Chris,
No... only modern Zen.
It's always seemed an inappropriate use of the term 'enlightenment' to me.
Metta,
Retro.
No... only modern Zen.
It's always seemed an inappropriate use of the term 'enlightenment' to me.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- jcsuperstar
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
- Location: alaska
- Contact:
Re: Arahantship already here?
yeah this is a mahayana teaching, though i think some forest ajahns have said similar things,
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hi all
I have not encountered any evidence within what is Classical Theravada.
The view that 'samsara is nibbana' or enlightenment is accessible within an instant, seems to be a later, Mahayana, teaching.
Ben
I have not encountered any evidence within what is Classical Theravada.
The view that 'samsara is nibbana' or enlightenment is accessible within an instant, seems to be a later, Mahayana, teaching.
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hi all
As im aware this is the classical forum im not trying to contradict orthodoxy so the following is just an explanation to help understand how i reached this understanding
The main reason i have this understanding is from the fact that one doesnt "become" a stream-winner through to Arahantship
Since one doesnt become them they can be seen as stages of letting go and thus realizations of reality that already exsists
Arahantship is the understanding of reality, since reality cant be created it must be there just hidden because of the defilements of the mind which cloud vision
So basically i see arahantship/nibbana as a truth that is there to be uncovered (via the removing of the defilements) and so is something that is there, present in everyone (in conventional speak) they just have to work to realize it via meditation, morality and wisdom
I feel this is in line with the Buddhadhamma from this quote
If something is subtle its easily overlooked, when something is overlooked it implies that its there all a long we just dont realize it
the same for hard to see and hard to realize, its there all a long but because its subtle its hard to see and realize
Metta
As im aware this is the classical forum im not trying to contradict orthodoxy so the following is just an explanation to help understand how i reached this understanding
The main reason i have this understanding is from the fact that one doesnt "become" a stream-winner through to Arahantship
Since one doesnt become them they can be seen as stages of letting go and thus realizations of reality that already exsists
Arahantship is the understanding of reality, since reality cant be created it must be there just hidden because of the defilements of the mind which cloud vision
So basically i see arahantship/nibbana as a truth that is there to be uncovered (via the removing of the defilements) and so is something that is there, present in everyone (in conventional speak) they just have to work to realize it via meditation, morality and wisdom
I feel this is in line with the Buddhadhamma from this quote
The important words here, the ones that helped lead me to this understanding, are "Subtle", "hard to see" and "hard to realize""Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
If something is subtle its easily overlooked, when something is overlooked it implies that its there all a long we just dont realize it
the same for hard to see and hard to realize, its there all a long but because its subtle its hard to see and realize
Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hello clw_uk,
The Buddha taught that there is an orderly process which must happen to attain any of the Ariya stages. These involve the progressive extinguishing of unwholesome qualites.
Maybe read these teachings:
From Puthujjana to the Buddha
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyacht.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
QUALITIES OF ARIYA PERSONS
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ariyas (Noble Persons)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
The Buddha taught that there is an orderly process which must happen to attain any of the Ariya stages. These involve the progressive extinguishing of unwholesome qualites.
Maybe read these teachings:
From Puthujjana to the Buddha
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyacht.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
QUALITIES OF ARIYA PERSONS
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ariyas (Noble Persons)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Arahantship already here?
This is no different than saying "Underneath all these weeds, the garden is free of weeds."clw_uk wrote:Arahantship is something thats already here in the moment its just we dont see it or realize it because of the defilements
Arahantship is not the Dhamma. Arahantship is not insight. Insight into the dhamma (the way things really are) comes from development of the dhamma (the path as taught by the Buddha) and leads to the eradication of the defilements. The state of defilements being eradicated is what is called arahantship.I feel this is in line with the Buddhadhamma from this quote:
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
So you see, it is just as if you said "Complete absence of defilements is already here; it's just we don't see it because of the defilements."
Or if we look at it from the perspective of what people do rather than what they are...
"We are completely free from suffering; it's just we don't see it because of all the suffering we keep creating."
Last edited by kc2dpt on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Arahantship already here?
On a kind of a side note, I recall Ajahn Brahm saying in one of his talks that in the hell realm the door out is always there.
In the prison where I come as a chaplain, one of the guys recalled a near-death experience where he did find himself at one stage in something like a hell realm. He was suspended in midair in a pitch dark space. All he could see is chains hanging and people screaming. He was overcome by fear. Then eventually he recalled a prayer and was instantly transported towards a bright light. Well, that's his story anyway.
As for the Mahayana and Zen perspective that was mentioned, once one realises that the habits and what fuels them (the notion of a self that gains or loses) are empty, that is a mental fabrication without any inherent quality, this is called enlightenment. The difference can be between a glimpse and a full realisation. Glimpses are held to be a first step. As for realisations, some masters taught that there needs to be a period of stabilisation and others have argued that if this is a real enlightenment then there needs to be no further work to stabilise or refine it.
Nevertheless, defilements are not really defilements, they are just perceived as such because we do not have insight. In this sense everything that happens beckons us towards realisation. And everything is in this ultimate sense perfect, just as we are at this very moment doing our best. The best we know how. And tomorrow that will be different of course. After the realisation these habits (defilements) hold no sway over us since the wind has gone from the sails, so to speak. Instead one is driven by one's Bodhisattva Vows, ie compassion. This is the doctrine as I understand it.
In a sense it is sudden - a sudden insight just like the Buddha on seeing the Morning Star. And in another sense there is some work that lays the foundation. Or so it appears to the unenlightened.
_/|\_
In the prison where I come as a chaplain, one of the guys recalled a near-death experience where he did find himself at one stage in something like a hell realm. He was suspended in midair in a pitch dark space. All he could see is chains hanging and people screaming. He was overcome by fear. Then eventually he recalled a prayer and was instantly transported towards a bright light. Well, that's his story anyway.
As for the Mahayana and Zen perspective that was mentioned, once one realises that the habits and what fuels them (the notion of a self that gains or loses) are empty, that is a mental fabrication without any inherent quality, this is called enlightenment. The difference can be between a glimpse and a full realisation. Glimpses are held to be a first step. As for realisations, some masters taught that there needs to be a period of stabilisation and others have argued that if this is a real enlightenment then there needs to be no further work to stabilise or refine it.
Nevertheless, defilements are not really defilements, they are just perceived as such because we do not have insight. In this sense everything that happens beckons us towards realisation. And everything is in this ultimate sense perfect, just as we are at this very moment doing our best. The best we know how. And tomorrow that will be different of course. After the realisation these habits (defilements) hold no sway over us since the wind has gone from the sails, so to speak. Instead one is driven by one's Bodhisattva Vows, ie compassion. This is the doctrine as I understand it.
In a sense it is sudden - a sudden insight just like the Buddha on seeing the Morning Star. And in another sense there is some work that lays the foundation. Or so it appears to the unenlightened.
_/|\_
_/|\_
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27858
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arahantship already here?
Greetings Dan,
Thanks for sharing the perspective.
However, best I think now that we've covered the "this is where clw_uk may have gotten this impression from" angle, we can safely return to responding to, and discussing his question from a Classical Theravada standpoint.
Metta,
Retro.
Thanks for sharing the perspective.
However, best I think now that we've covered the "this is where clw_uk may have gotten this impression from" angle, we can safely return to responding to, and discussing his question from a Classical Theravada standpoint.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Arahantship already here?
Hello Retrofuturist, Dan74,
If Dan's post is going to remain, then it would be good if you and Dan74 would say how the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon support such beliefs and how His teachings don't support them?
metta
Chris
If Dan's post is going to remain, then it would be good if you and Dan74 would say how the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon support such beliefs and how His teachings don't support them?
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27858
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Arahantship already here?
Greetings Chris,
As you can see from my last post, I'm try to get this conversation...
Dan's post helped to close the door on some issues that had arisen regarding the similarity between clw_uk's opening statement and the beliefs and interpretations of some other traditions. Dan's post is causing no harm. No one is being deceived into thinking it represents Classical Theravada and he is making no attempt for it to look that way.
As I said..
Now that we've covered the "this is where clw_uk may have gotten this impression from" angle, we can safely return to responding to, and discussing his question from a Classical Theravada standpoint.
Metta,
Retro.
As you can see from my last post, I'm try to get this conversation...
Dan's post helped to close the door on some issues that had arisen regarding the similarity between clw_uk's opening statement and the beliefs and interpretations of some other traditions. Dan's post is causing no harm. No one is being deceived into thinking it represents Classical Theravada and he is making no attempt for it to look that way.
As I said..
Now that we've covered the "this is where clw_uk may have gotten this impression from" angle, we can safely return to responding to, and discussing his question from a Classical Theravada standpoint.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."