Luminous Mind. - What is it?

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Viscid wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Viscid wrote: You're my new favourite poster.
It is my sincere hope that this does not lead to dukkha. :tongue:
You'll be interested in Maha Bua's "eternal citta" description of God's essence inner luminosity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Maha ... 27Citta.27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll see similar descriptions of inner luminosity throughout many, if not all, contemplative traditions. Get to a certain level of 'purificiation,' a certain stillness of the mind, and you begin to experience its foundational brilliance.

And yeah, it's impermanent.
Thanks, Viscid. I'll read this later this evening. I appreciate your efforts.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Recently in another thread, several participants brought up the idea of "luminous mind", which I will not define in this post, but provide several citations from the suttas and commentaries:
AN 1.49-52 PTS: A i 10 (I,v,9-10; I,vi,1-2)
Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1995–2011
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the
noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
The "luminous mind" is not the awakened mind. The awakened mind is the mind free of defilements. "Luminous" simply refers to the initial act of awareness as the mind becomes aware of an object of consciousness. There is no need to complicate the idea of "luminous mind" with all sorts of speculations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote: "Luminous" simply refers to the initial act of awareness as the mind becomes aware of an object of consciousness.
Snore.

Then why call it 'Luminous?'
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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cooran
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

A thread on Luminous, Pure on dhammastudygroup may be of interest:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/16771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: "Luminous" simply refers to the initial act of awareness as the mind becomes aware of an object of consciousness.
Snore.

Then why call it 'Luminous?'
That initial bit of awareness before all the other stuff piles on has a claririty about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:
Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: "Luminous" simply refers to the initial act of awareness as the mind becomes aware of an object of consciousness.
Snore.

Then why call it 'Luminous?'
That initial bit of awareness before all the other stuff piles on has a claririty about it.
Clarity isn't radiant, which 'Luminous' implies.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote: Clarity isn't radiant, which 'Luminous' implies.
And how literal do we want to be? Shall talk about the clarity of a diamond?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by kirk5a »

Pabhassara (adj.) [fr. bhās] shining, very bright, resplendent S i.145; v.92, 283; A i.10, 254, 257 sq., iii.16; Sn 48 (=parisuddha pariyodāta Nd2 402); J v.202, 170; Vv 171 (rucira+); Pv iii.31 (rucira+); Vism 223; 377; DhA i.28; VvA 12 (pakati˚ bright by nature).

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :1663.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:Pabhassara (adj.) [fr. bhās] shining, very bright, resplendent S i.145; v.92, 283; A i.10, 254, 257 sq., iii.16; Sn 48 (=parisuddha pariyodāta Nd2 402); J v.202, 170; Vv 171 (rucira+); Pv iii.31 (rucira+); Vism 223; 377; DhA i.28; VvA 12 (pakati˚ bright by nature).

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :1663.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are you envisioning some sort of beacon thingie, shining, glowing, radiating?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Nibbida
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Nibbida »

This pretty much explains it:
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
Yoda_SWSB.jpg
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Nibbida wrote:This pretty much explains it:
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
And you are quibbling over words, why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Pabhassara (adj.) [fr. bhās] shining, very bright, resplendent S i.145; v.92, 283; A i.10, 254, 257 sq., iii.16; Sn 48 (=parisuddha pariyodāta Nd2 402); J v.202, 170; Vv 171 (rucira+); Pv iii.31 (rucira+); Vism 223; 377; DhA i.28; VvA 12 (pakati˚ bright by nature).

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :1663.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are you envisioning some sort of beacon thingie, shining, glowing, radiating?
When I read the word "luminous" I think of something glowing, like a light bulb or the moon. I don't know how to relate that to experience, which is why I did some amateur sleuthing into the Pali. The root "bhās" from what I can tell, seems to have something to do with light or the qualities of light. Looking at it that way, the quality of "clarity" makes more sense to me.

Side anecdote: I attended a Zen center and the chant book opened with "You are the light." I was resistant to this from the very first. 50% because it seemed like some kind of Self-view, and 50% because I was like... "WHAT light??" which is exactly what I asked the priest in an interview. He said it was meant as a metaphor. I thought to myself, well that's all fine and good, but I still don't have a clue what "light" it is I'm supposed to be identifying with this metaphor...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Pabhassara (adj.) [fr. bhās] shining, very bright, resplendent S i.145; v.92, 283; A i.10, 254, 257 sq., iii.16; Sn 48 (=parisuddha pariyodāta Nd2 402); J v.202, 170; Vv 171 (rucira+); Pv iii.31 (rucira+); Vism 223; 377; DhA i.28; VvA 12 (pakati˚ bright by nature).

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :1663.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Are you envisioning some sort of beacon thingie, shining, glowing, radiating?
When I read the word "luminous" I think of something glowing, like a light bulb or the moon. I don't know how to relate that to experience, which is why I did some amateur sleuthing into the Pali. The root "bhās" from what I can tell, seems to have something to do with light or the qualities of light. Looking at it that way, the quality of "clarity" makes more sense to me.
Of course, "luminuos" is metaphorical speech, as is "clarity."

I am not claiming anything extraordinary here. During a three month vipassana retreat one can get very quiet, very concentrated and very mindful. There are times that there is the clear experience of the instant of the arising of awareness, just that instant before all the other khandha stuff arises, colors and "drives" - as it were - the direction of one's awareness. For me, "claritry" best captures that aspect of the arising of the mind (citta) moment, but one could use the word "luminuous" or some such word, keeping in mind, it is just descriptive metaphor. What else would it be? There is no need to try to turn the mind into some sort of thing of "purity."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by daverupa »

I tend to expect the word luminous to be used to refer to a clarity which is discernible as-is; discerning clarity generally requires some other illumination. Luminous things, however, don't require another light source, they are considered to provide sufficient inherent illumination for discerning any other (literally visual) qualities.

So the mind is called luminous as a metaphor because it can be seen calmly and clearly apart from the otherwise emitted thoughts and feelings and perceptions with which it is usually identified. I expect that the third tetrad of anapanasati is an exploration of this.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dan74
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

What about this line?
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the
noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
Especially the words "discerns that as it actually is present"?
_/|\_
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