Luminous Mind. - What is it?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:What about this line?
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the
noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
Especially the words "discerns that as it actually is present"?
"When for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the
heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized,
then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms
of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither
here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."

-- Ud I 10
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

I'd be inclined to agree. But then it seems that the "luminous mind" only a few words previously refers to something more that just
the initial act of awareness as the mind becomes aware of an object of consciousness.
You said
The "luminous mind" is not the awakened mind.
doesn't seem to add up...
_/|\_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote: You said
The "luminous mind" is not the awakened mind.
doesn't seem to add up...
All I can say if you want to do the math, look at the text:

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}
Being free of incoming defilement is awakening. Obviously the luminous mind, in and of itself, is not, given that it can be defiled.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by kirk5a »

Thusly?
“The mind is something more radiant than anything else
can be, but because counterfeits – passing defilements – come
and obscure it, it loses its radiance, like the sun when obscured
by clouds. Don’t go thinking that the sun goes after the clouds.
Instead, the clouds come drifting along and obscure the sun.
“So meditators, when they know in this manner, should do away
with these counterfeits by analyzing them shrewdly... When they
develop the mind to the stage of the primal mind, this will mean
that all counterfeits are destroyed, or rather, counterfeit things
won’t be able to reach into the primal mind, because the bridge
making the connection will have been destroyed. Even though
the mind may then still have to come into contact with the
preoccupations of the world, its contact will be like that of a
bead of water rolling over a lotus leaf.”
~ Ven. Ajahn Mun, ‘A Heart Released,’ p 23
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Ben
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ben »

Hi Dan,
Dan74 wrote:What about this line?
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the
noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
Especially the words "discerns that as it actually is present"?
I would be very interested in seeing the pali for the words you highlighted above. To me, it appears as though the Buddha is talking about the development of special wisdom, vipassana, which is often defined as 'seeing things as they really are' or variations of that. Vipassana is developed, as you know, by observing one or more of the three characteristics of existence, anicca, dukkha and anatta. So while the mind is described as luminous, it should not be taken as unconditioned (asankhata).
Furthermore,I think the passage from the Udana is problematic for many people as it appears to imply a surrogate for a self.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:Thusly?
“The mind is something more radiant than anything else
can be, but because counterfeits – passing defilements – come
and obscure it, it loses its radiance, like the sun when obscured
by clouds. Don’t go thinking that the sun goes after the clouds.
Instead, the clouds come drifting along and obscure the sun.
“So meditators, when they know in this manner, should do away
with these counterfeits by analyzing them shrewdly... When they
develop the mind to the stage of the primal mind, this will mean
that all counterfeits are destroyed, or rather, counterfeit things
won’t be able to reach into the primal mind, because the bridge
making the connection will have been destroyed. Even though
the mind may then still have to come into contact with the
preoccupations of the world, its contact will be like that of a
bead of water rolling over a lotus leaf.”
~ Ven. Ajahn Mun, ‘A Heart Released,’ p 23
"Primal mind?" Whatever could that be? Also, keep in mind, that the mind is not a thing, but an interdependent process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:Furthermore,I think the passage from the Udana is problematic for many people as it appears to imply a surrogate for a self.
And it is radiant and it is always there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by kirk5a »

Ben wrote:Hi Dan,
Dan74 wrote:What about this line?
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the
noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}
I would be very interested in seeing the pali for the words you highlighted above.
1. 6. 2.
Pabhassaramidaṃ bhikkhave cittaṃ tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi vippamuttaṃ.48 Taṃ sutavā ariyasāvako yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti. Tasmā sutavato ariyasāvakassa cittabhāvanā atthīti vadāmīti.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Taṃ sutavā ariyasāvako yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti.
In other words, it is one who has attained some degree of awakening (sutavā ariyasāvako) by comprehending (pajānāti) things as they truly are (yathābhūtaṃ).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

What about he bit before that? "And it is freed..." ("freed" as in "it can be freed", "it will be freed" or "is already freed"?)
_/|\_
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by kirk5a »

The companion passage for the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" (puthujjana) is this:

1. 6. 1.
Pabhassaramidaṃ bhikkhave cittaṃ tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭhaṃ. Taṃ assutavā47 puthujjano yathābhūtaṃ nappanājāti. Tasmā assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhāvanā natthīti vadāmīti.

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:What about he bit before that? "And it is freed..." ("freed" as in "it can be freed", "it will be freed" or "is already freed"?)
You are reaching here. The only way the mind is freed by by seeing things as they are, by bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by christopher::: »

"Training this mind... actually there's nothing much to this mind. It's simply radiant in and of itself. It's naturally peaceful. Why the mind doesn't feel peaceful right now is because it gets lost in its own moods. There's nothing to mind itself. It simply abides in its natural state, that's all. That sometimes the mind feels peaceful and other times not peaceful is because it has been tricked by these moods. The untrained mind lacks wisdom. It's foolish. Moods come and trick it into feeling pleasure one minute and suffering the next. Happiness then sadness. But the natural state of a person's mind isn't one of happiness or sadness. This experience of happiness and sadness is not the actual mind itself, but just these moods which have tricked it. The mind gets lost, carried away by these moods with no idea what's happening. And as a result, we experience pleasure and pain accordingly, because the mind has not been trained yet. It still isn't very clever. And we go on thinking that it's our mind which is suffering or our mind which is happy, when actually it's just lost in its various moods.

The point is that really this mind of ours is naturally peaceful. It's still and calm like a leaf that is not being blown about by the wind. But if the wind blows then it flutters. It does that because of the wind. And so with the mind it's because of these moods - getting caught up with thoughts. If the mind didn't get lost in these moods it wouldn't flutter about. If it understood the nature of thoughts it would just stay still. This is called the natural state of the mind. And why we have come to practice now is to see the mind in this original state. We think that the mind itself is actually pleasurable or peaceful. But really the mind has not created any real pleasure or pain. These thoughts have come and tricked it and it has got caught up in them. So we really have to come and train our minds in order to grow in wisdom. So that we understand the true nature of thoughts rather than just following them blindly. The mind is naturally peaceful. It's in order to understand just this much that we have come together to do this difficult practice of meditation."


~Ajahn Chah
Training this mind

Image
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Taṃ sutavā ariyasāvako yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti.
In other words, it is one who has attained some degree of awakening (sutavā ariyasāvako) by comprehending (pajānāti) things as they truly are (yathābhūtaṃ).
Indeed.
Etymologically, the word (vipassana) has been derived from the root 'pas' which means 'to see' with the prefix 'vi' which means 'visesa'-in a special manner or 'vividham'-from different angles. Thus literally the term Vipassana communicates the sense of observing or seeing in a special manner-Visesato passatiti vipassana visesena passati ti vipassana2 or Anicca divasena vividhena akarena passati ti vipassana3. (He sees from different angles as impermanent etc., thus it is Vipassana.)
This process is also described as seeing things as they really are (yatha bhuta nana dassanamyatha bhuta nana dassanam), not as they appear to be.

-- SN Goenka
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Dan74
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Re: Luminous Mind. - What is it?

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:What about he bit before that? "And it is freed..." ("freed" as in "it can be freed", "it will be freed" or "is already freed"?)
You are reaching here. The only way the mind is freed by by seeing things as they are, by bringing greed, hatred and delusion to an end.
I am not. I am asking for the ways in which the Pali can be rendered.

Incidentally "yathabhuta" seems to be closest to "as [they] arise" according to this person:

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... athabhuta/

Which accords well with the message to Bahiya and the luminosity that is prior to all fermentations.

This is not about trying to sneak in some sort of a self. My experience is that when there is some letting up of grasping, there is not only clarity but luminosity. I am trying to figure out what exactly the Buddha is saying here - whether it is related to this experience or something else altogether.
_/|\_
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