Unfair Criticism?

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Ceisiwr
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Unfair Criticism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I was reading a book when i come across this quote

This combination of selective emphasis and conservative, narrow or simplistic interpretation has
made Theravada what it is. By highlighting different material from the Pali Tipitaka and
interpreting it in different but equally or perhaps in even more valid ways, one could have quite a
different type of Buddhism. And in fact this did happen. The Sravastavadians, Dharmaguptakas,
Sautantikas, the Abhayagirivasins, etc, were different schools with a different ‘feel’ despite basing
themselves on a Sutta and Vinaya Pitaka that were the same or substantially the same as the Pail
ones. Unfortunately, all these schools disappeared leaving Theravadians holding the field as the sole
‘orthodox’ interpreters of the Buddha’s teaching in its earliest form. Of course a Theravadin would
say that it is dangerous or unnecessary to interpret or elaborate on the Buddha’s words. But drawing
deeper or broader meanings from the Buddha’s words was being done even during his own lifetime.
See for example how Maha Kacchyana very creatively reinterpreted one of the Buddha’s sayings
from the Sutta Nipata (S.III,9). It seems that when it comes to something negative or theoretical
Theravadin are able to be remarkably creative. It is only with the practical, the positive or anything
outside the narrow orbit in which they have chosen to operate that they seem to be lost for words. It
should come as no surprise that in its two thousand year history Theravada has produced no great
religious thinkers – no Augustine, Aquinas or Erasmus, no Nagarjuna, Tsong Khapa or Dogen.
http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Anyone else feel this is a bit unfair?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Craig,

Here's an interesting post at BSWA:
http://www.bswa.org/modules/newbb/viewt ... 28&forum=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
camerata
Posted on: 2007/7/19 16:17 Re: Broken Buddha

It's kind of sad how this text is being passed around the Internet with people all saying how excellent it is and what a revelation it is. Maybe it's a revelation to cyber-Buddhists, but not to anyone living in a Buddhist country or who has done some reading.

The very essence of the Buddha's message was that suffering can be overcome by changing our mind rather than by trying to change the world. Yet here we have the author displaying the classic fault-finding mind, wanting the perfect doctrine, the perfect sangha, perfect teachers, perfect monasteries and perfect laity. Well, we all want perfect Buddhism but it isn't out there anywhere and to wish for it is futile.

This is why I admire the Forest Tradition so much. You don't hear Ajahns Sumedho, Thanissaro, Brahm, et al constantly pissing and moaning about things not being perfect. They just get on with the job of getting enlightened and teaching others how to do it.
...
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It would seem that the author prizes philosophy over liberation. I guess everyone's got their own priorities.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

It would seem that the author prizes philosophy over liberation. I guess everyone's got their own priorities.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I agree Retro, if it was't linked to someone I would of thought this quote was by a self proclaimed Monk idiot I know.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
thecap
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by thecap »

Hi friends.

I don't know if it's fair. But what about discernment?

Isn't it more interesting to know what part of it is true and what is mere polemics?

(Asking the fair question sort of implies that you think it can't be entirely false critique.)

Kind regards,
thecap
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retrofuturist
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings thecap,
thecap wrote:Isn't it more interesting to know what part of it is true and what is mere polemics?
Once you see that someone's assumptions / priorities / beliefs are so disparative and irreconcilable with your own, you realise it is more profitable to spend one's limited time investigating other matters.

Once for example, I see a friend express an opinion regarding the greatness of Bob Dylan, I realise that their musical tastes are so wildly different to my own, that I have no need to seek his thoughts on the merits of the new Pet Shop Boys album, for example. :rofl:
thecap wrote:But what about discernment?
To me, that is the discernment... to know that investigation along such channels is of no benefit... that is not conducive to renunciation and enlightenment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by jcsuperstar »

i went and read that whole article, and he makes a lot of valid points,however i think his solutions are somewhat absurd, and if not outright they at least border on wanting to cause a schism in the sangha... :thinking:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Ben
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro & all
retrofuturist wrote:Once for example, I see a friend express an opinion regarding the greatness of Bob Dylan, I realise that their musical tastes are so wildly different to my own, that I have no need to seek his thoughts on the merits of the new Pet Shop Boys album, for example. :rofl:
I assume you are talking about me. I will not apologise for having good taste.
Out of politeness and not wishing to make you cry, I have refrained from telling you what I think of the Petshop Boys.

However, when you said:
Once you see that someone's assumptions / priorities / beliefs are so disparative and irreconcilable with your own, you realise it is more profitable to spend one's limited time investigating other matters.
I couldn't agree more.

Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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nathan
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by nathan »

Bob Dylan has the penthouse in the Tower of Song. Bob Rules! :jumping: :smile: :anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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cooran
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by cooran »

I'm a Bob Dylan fan also. :group:

He has 144 pages (and counting) on Wikipedia:

Songs by Bob Dylan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:S ... _Bob_Dylan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many do PSB's have? :rofl:

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
Chris wrote:How many do PSB's have?
I'm not sure, but I do know the PSB have more silly hats... which renders all other criteria irrelevant. :twothumbsup:

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Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Fede
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by Fede »

(off-Topic, or what.....?! :bow: :clap: )
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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cooran
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by cooran »

Call those REAL MEN'S HATS?

These are REAL MEN'S HATS
:


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And, of course, this is about Dhamma .... so ..... I'm really just showing how we are all subject to birth aging sickness and death. Not to mention impermanence ....

This was Bob Dylan as we first knew him .....


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See what wearing hats does to you?? :shock:

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by retrofuturist »

The hat suits Bob... alternatively, with hair like that maybe he should have become a bhikkhu.

Pass the clippers...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Unfair Criticism?

Post by mikenz66 »

Chris wrote: See what wearing hats does to you?? :shock:
Turns you into Cate Blanchett and Richard Gere?
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Metta
Mike
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