Not long ago, I posed the following question to some Dhamma friends....
-------------- I've been having a look at this summary diagram (sourced from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy ... arise4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) of the various factors of dependent origination and their classification as either kilesa, kamma or vipaka...
I'm just wondering if anyone could provide any sutta (or other Theravadin) references that might help to shed some light on the alignment of these classifications with the various dependent origination factors?
.... to which venerable Nyanatusita responded (reposted here with author's permission)...
The Petakopadesa, a work on hermeneutics closely related to the Netti, gives three classifications of dependent origination. I shall quote Nyanamoli's translation (Pitaka Disclosure § 374–79, PTS ed. p.99f):
374. Herein, there is Dependent Origination in three ways, … four ways, … two ways.
375. Herein, there is Dependent Origination in three ways as cause (hetu), fruit (phala), and outcome (nissanda). Then ignorance, determinations (sankhaara), craving, and assuming (upaadaana), are the cause; consciousness, name and form, the sixfold base, contact and feeling, are the fruit; being (bhava), birth, and ageing-and-death are the outcome.
376. How in four ways? As cause, condition, ripening, and outcome. Ignorance and craving, determinations and assuming: these are the cause. Consciousness is name-and-form's condition, and name-and-form when it arises is [a condition] for the sixfold base, [and so] contact and feeling: these are the condition. Being is ripening (vipaaka). Birth and ageing-and-death are the outcome.
377. How there is Dependent Origination in two ways? Ignorance, determinations, craving, and assuming, are Origin. Consciousness, name-and-form, the sixfold base, contact, feeling, being, birth, [ageing-and-] death are Suffering. (Cf. § 52)
378. But since with cessation of ignorance, cessation of determinations, etc., these, as opposites, are the other two Truths.
'Outcome' applies to the result in this life, while 'fruit' applies to the next life. Regarding the bhava as vipaaka in the fourfold way Nyanamoli notes: ''The allusion is apparently to the second sort of being in the twofold division at, e.g. Pa.tis I 50—2, namely being as action (kamma-bhava) and ''being-as-reappearance'' (uppatti-bhava).”
The last, two way classification is also found in the Dvayataananupassanaa Sutta in the Sutta Nipata, where it is stated that the various factors of dependent origination should be regarded in terms of arising and cessation of suffering, e.g.:
“`Whatever suffering comes into being, all that is caused by ignorance' this is one way of regarding. `With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance there is no origination of suffering” this is the second way of regarding.” (Sn 734–5)
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So we managed to identify a commentarial explanation for the explanation, but I was still curious as to what the commentarial exegesis was based on...
Even if there is no single sutta that categorises them all explicitly as per the original diagram (which I won't yet rule out, of course), I'd also be interested also in any suttas that might even just explicitly categorise one or two of them at a time. It could even be 12 different suttas explaining the classification of each of the 12 conditions... that would probably do just fine.
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I bring this to your attention as I feel the subject may be of interest to some people, and in the hope that we might be able to pick up where we left off the discussion, and identify the earliest known basis for these classifications. All comments, questions etc. welcome as always.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
stuka wrote:Are there any Sutta passages in which the Buddha lists this "kammabhava" as one of the nidanas in the context of paticcasamuppada....?
"Kamma-process becoming" is not itself a nidāna, but rather a term for a process involving several nidānas. It wasn't taught by the Buddha in the Suttas (or at least not using this term), but in the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) and Dhātukathā (Treatise on Elements) of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. In the Sutta Piṭaka it was taught in the Niddesa of the Khuddaka Nikāya, which the minor commentator Upasena attributes to the disciple Sāriputta.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Do you have any sutta references to support those beliefs?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
retrofuturist wrote:Do you have any sutta references to support those beliefs?
Clearly, consciousness cannot be vipaka, given consciousness can become liberated.
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
retrofuturist wrote:Do you have any sutta references to support those beliefs?
There are three kinds of kamma, namely bodily, verbal and thinking. How does kamma arise?
Note: In my opinion, the sensuality element and even sensual desire is not yet kamma. Kamma is action.
Bhikkhus, sensual thoughts arise with a source, not without a source; thought of ill will arises with a source, not without a source; thought of harming arises with a source, not without a source. And how is this so?
In dependence on the sensuality element there arises sensual perception; in dependence on the sensual perception there arises sensual intention; in dependence on the sensual intention there arises sensual desire; in dependence on the sensual desire there arises sensual passion; in dependence on the sensual passion there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a sensual quest, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.
In dependence on the ill will element there arises perception of ill will...
In dependence on the cruelty element there arises perception of harming...
In dependence on the renunciation element there arises perception of renunciation...
In dependence on the non-ill will element there arises perception of non-ill will...
In dependence on the harmlessness element there arises perception of harmlessness. In dependence on the perception of harmlessness there arises intention of harmlessness; in dependence on intention of harmlessness there arises desire for harmlessness; in dependence on desire for harmlessness there arises passion for harmlessness; in dependence on passion for harmlessness there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a quest for harmlessness, the instructed noble disciple conducts himself rightly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.
retrofuturist wrote:Do you have any sutta references to support those beliefs?
The following sutta states unskilful kamma maintains or sustains ignorance. I say not only that, but skilful kamma can increase ignorance, such as in the situation of escalating addiction. Habitual tendencies become stronger and stronger.
Hence, when association with unworthy people prevails, it will make prevail the listening to wrong teachings. When listening to wrong teaching prevails, it will make prevail lack of faith. When lack of faith prevails, it will make prevail unwise attention. When unwise attention prevails, it will make prevail lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. When lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, it will make prevail lack of sense-control. When lack of sense-control prevails, it will make prevail the threefold wrong conduct. When the threefold wrong conduct prevails, it will make prevail the five hindrances. When the five hindrances prevail, they will make ignorance prevail. Such is the nutriment of that ignorance and so it prevails.
Just as if, when there is heavy rain high up in the mountains, the water, flowing downwards, will fill up the clefts, crevices and fissures in the mountains, and when these are full, they will fill up the little pools; the full little pools will fill up the lakes; the full lakes will fill up the small rivers; the full small rivers will fill up the big rivers; and the full big rivers will fill up the great ocean. Such is the nutriment of the great ocean, and so it becomes full.
In the same way, monks, when association with unworthy people prevails, listening to wrong teachings will prevail... when the five hindrances prevail, ignorance will prevail. Such is the nutriment of ignorance and so it prevails.
121. Think not lightly of evil, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.
122. Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise man, gathering it little by little, fills himself with good.
If, O monks, there is lust for the nutriment edible food, if there is pleasure in it and craving for it, then consciousness takes a hold therein and grows. Where consciousness takes a hold and grows, there will be occurrence of mind-and-body. Where there is occurrence of mind-and-body, there is growth of kamma-formations. Where there is growth of kamma-formations, there is a future arising of renewed existence. Where there is a future arising of renewed existence, there is future birth, decay & death. This, I say, O monks, is laden with sorrow, burdened with anguish and despair. [Nyanaponika]
Where there is passion, delight & craving for the nutriment of physical food, consciousness lands there and increases. Where consciousness lands and increases, there is the alighting of name-&-form. Where there is the alighting of name-&-form, there is the growth of fabrications. Where there is the growth of fabrications, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging, & death, together, I tell you, with sorrow, affliction, & despair. [Thanissaro]
If, O monks, there is lust for the nutriment edible food, if there is delight, if there is craving for it, then consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Whereever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth, there is the descent of name-and-form, there is the growth of volitional formations. Where there the growth of volitional formations, there is the production of future renewed existence. Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is future birth, aging and death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish and despair. [Bodhi]
Dhammanando wrote:Thank you, Bhante, and might I inquire further as to which of the nidanas in this schema are involved in this process, and how so?
Ignorance, formations, craving, grasping, and becoming.
From the Paṭisambhidāmagga:
In kamma-process becoming before this life there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is grasping; there is volition, which is being; thus these five dhammas in kamma-process becoming before this life are conditions for rebirth-linking here in the present life.
Here in the present life there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation in the womb, which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense-base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five dhammas in rebirth-process becoming here have their condition in kamma done in the past.
Here in the present life with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is grasping; there is volition, which is being; thus these five dhammas in kamma-process becoming here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future.
In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation in the womb, which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense-base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five dhammas in rebirth-process becoming in the future have their conditions in kamma done here in the present life.
(Path of Discrimination 52)
From the Vibhaṅga:
Therein what is because of grasping, becoming arises? Becoming by way of twofold division: kamma-process becoming; rebirth-process becoming. Therein what is kamma-process becoming? Meritorious formation (puññābhisaṅkhāra), demeritorious formation (apuññābhisaṅkhāra), imperturbable formation (āneñjābhisaṅkhāra). This is called kamma-process becoming.
Therein what is rebirth-process becoming? Becoming in the sensual plane, the fine-material plane, the immaterial plane; perception-becoming, non-perception becoming, neither-perception-nor-non-perception becoming, single aggregate becoming, four aggregate becoming, five aggregate becoming. This is called rebirth-process becoming. This is called because of grasping, becoming arises.
(Vbh. 136-7; Book of Analysis 182)
From the Visuddhimagga:
Grasping, etc. are the respective conditions for becoming and the rest. In what way? Here someone thinks, 'I shall enjoy sense-desires,' and with sense-desire grasping as condition he misconducts himself in body, speech, and mind. Owing to the fulfilment of his misconduct he reappears in a state of loss. The kamma that is the cause of his reappearance there is kamma-process becoming, the aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirth-process becoming, the generating of the aggregates is birth, their maturing is ageing, their dissolution is death.
Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of heaven,' and in the parallel manner he conducts himself well. Owing to the fulfilment of his good conduct he reappears in a sensual heaven. The kamma that is the cause of his reappearance there is kamma-process becoming, and the rest as before.
Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the Brahmā-world,' and with sense-desire grasping as condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of the meditative development he is reborn in the Brahmā-world. The kamma that is the cause of his rebirth there is kamma-process becoming, and the rest is as before.
Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of immaterial becoming,' and with the same condition he develops the attainments beginning with the base consisting of boundless space. Owing to the fulfilment of the development he is reborn in one of these states. The kamma that is the cause of his rebirth there is kamma-process becoming, the aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirth-process becoming, the generating of the aggregates is birth, their maturing is ageing, their dissolution is death.
(Path of Purification VII 16-19)
[What is said above of kāmūpādāna may then be repeated for the other three kinds of grasping: to wrong view, to precept and vow, and to doctrines of self (diṭṭhupādāna, sīlabbatupādāna, attavādupādāna).]
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
P.S., In the above translations I've changed the wording somewhat to make the different translators' renderings of technical terms uniform.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
