Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:14 am

Greetings Annabel,

Annabel wrote:Um, what is the Theravadin conclusion exactly now?
Can we sum it up?

I think a fair conclusion from what I've read thus far would be that a 'bounty-hunter' isn't specified as wrong livelihood in and of itself. There may be aspects of the role that may become wrong livelihood under certain circumstances. It doesn't appear to be a good profession for a Buddhist because it doesn't seem particularly compatible with the Five Precepts or the Noble Eightfold Path.

I'll move this thread to the Lounge, but people are of course still welcome to comment from a Theravadin perspective after the move.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:57 am

stuka wrote:All of the silly monkey-chatter aside, let's take a look at just who and what this "Dog" fellow is:


Duane Chapman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duane Lee "Dog" Chapman
Born February 2, 1953 (1953-02-02) (age 55)
Denver, Colorado
Occupation Bounty hunter, television personality
Spouse(s) La Fonda Sue Honeycutt (1972-1977)
Anne M. Tegnell (1979-?)
Lyssa Rae Brittian (1982-1991)
Tawny Marie ?-1994
Beth Smith 2006-present
Children 11, including Duane Lee Chapman, II and Leland Chapman
Website
Official Website

Duane Lee "Dog" Chapman (born February 2, 1953 in Denver, Colorado [1]) is an American bounty hunter and bail bondsman who lives in Honolulu, Hawaii. He stars in Dog the Bounty Hunter, a weekly reality television program which is broadcast on the A&E Network (USA), Virgin 1 (both UK), Bravo, and FOX8/Nine Network (Australia) .

Chapman, a former gang member with 18 prior convictions for armed robbery,[2] was sentenced in Pampa, Texas to a five year prison term in 1977 after being convicted of the first degree murder of Jerry Oliver. Chapman maintains his innocence of murder but suggests he was a legal accessory for not reporting the shooting to the police. He was released on probation after 1 and a half years.[3]

Dog's career in bounty hunting began when he was in court disputing child support. When he told the judge he did not have the money to pay, the judge offered him a deal to bring in a fugitive in exchange for the judge to pay part of Chapman's child support [4] for Duane Lee and Leland Chapman.


:roll:


Dear Stuka,

if I would play chess, I would say the judge made an excellent move.

He helped to reintegrate Dog Chapman into society, and instead of repeating criminal offences to secure his livelihood, he now has a legal activity, which was recently rewarded.

If that isn't rehabilitation as suggested by Dhammakid, I don't know what is.

Instead of breaking the laws as before, he now reinforces them.

This is positive, isn't it? (Unless you want to argue that our laws are crap....)

What strikes me from the Buddhist and Theravada perspective is, that somebody (was) stopped (on) the downward course, as described it the Dhammapada.

When you now argue that he was convicted of murder, the case was apparently so weak they released him after 18 months on probation, so why is that, in the harsh US system?

Then you could also think of also think of Angulimala, who murdered 999, and then became a monk, and an Arahant.

Here is what happened after the racial slur he was accused of:

On December 21, 2007, Roy Innis, the chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality, one of the first to call the A&E network to have the show taken off the air, met with Alecia Colon of The New York Sun and Chapman. Innis stated for the daily newspaper, "After meeting with him and his wife, Beth, and hearing his side of the story, we realized that the controversy had unjustly spiraled out of control without context." [33]

He went on to say, "Duane has taken ownership of the damage of his words and has taken on the responsibility of being a racial healer for our country… I have been with this man several times and had extensive dialogues with him. (Innis' son) and I consider him and his wife good friends. Duane is a changed man and has a higher purpose. Popular television is a wasteland of meaningless titillation and degradation. The Dog's potential to take his celebrity and turn it into something redeeming for our culture and society is immense. It is for these reasons that we want his television show back on the air."


Namaste,

Annabel.
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:05 am

stuka wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings stuka,

Well, for Dog it looks as if being a bounty hunter is "Improved" livelihood, whether or not it's classified as "Right" or "Wrong".

Metta,
Retro. :)



:lol:

It would seem so. That fact does not seem to induce any sort of "nice cozy-warm feeling", however....


Which nobody did or support with quote.

Thanks! :P

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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:13 am

stuka wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Papanca?

Metta,
Retro. :)


In this case, the papanca of Schadenfreude over the public exploitation of the misfortunes and suffering that others incur, whether they ultimately deserve it, or not.




It wouldn't have occured to me to connect Schadenfreude with the series.

For me, I am happy that Chapman has an improved livelihood now and I like to learn more about the details of his unusual job.

I think it has to do with what we concentrate upon, who we look at, how we perceive others, positive or negative, and as such the thread also becomes a mirror in which we can investigate our own mind's workings..
Last edited by Annapurna on Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:20 am

stuka wrote:
Annabel wrote:
But that is not what is being done when I ask and we simply discuss what type of livelihood it constitutes.

Namaste!

Annabel


The problem lies in the indiscriminate nature of the beast.


Could you explain to me what you mean with that? Sorry, if it's obvious to others., but I don't get it right now. :oops:

Thanks!

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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Annabel,

Annabel wrote:Um, what is the Theravadin conclusion exactly now?
Can we sum it up?

I think a fair conclusion from what I've read thus far would be that a 'bounty-hunter' isn't specified as wrong livelihood in and of itself. There may be aspects of the role that may become wrong livelihood under certain circumstances. It doesn't appear to be a good profession for a Buddhist because it doesn't seem particularly compatible with the Five Precepts or the Noble Eightfold Path.

I'll move this thread to the Lounge, but people are of course still welcome to comment from a Theravadin perspective after the move.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi, Retro.

I think a fair conclusion from what I've read thus far would be that a 'bounty-hunter' isn't specified as wrong livelihood in and of itself.


ok.

There may be aspects of the role that may become wrong livelihood under certain circumstances.


Agreed.

It doesn't appear to be a good profession for a Buddhist because it doesn't seem particularly compatible with the Five Precepts or the Noble Eightfold Path.


I can understand that.

However....

76-77

Regard him as one who
points out
treasure,
the wise one who
seeing your faults
rebukes you.
Stay with this sort of sage.
For the one who stays
with a sage of this sort,
things get better,
not worse.

Let him admonish, instruct,
deflect you
away from poor manners.
To the good, he's endearing;
to the bad, he's not.


Dog often admonishes people he arrested to stop the wrong path and encourages them to do this or that instead. ...
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby christopher::: » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:01 am

Hi Anna & friends,

Some actions and activities in life may not fit neatly into a right or wrong category. Aspects of this man's work seem very positive, other aspects might create negative karma or problems for him in the future. Hard to say for sure, imo. People hold different views. I think especially with a situation like this that should be expected.

What's most important of course is that we make these kinds of distinctions as best we can for our own lives and behavior.

Just my own two cents on the matter.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:38 am

And as so often, you hit the nail on the head!

I wish Dog and his family enterprise lucky stars, and for myself and you all too.

Let's hope we always find the best solutions to the challenges and choices we may encounter.
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:57 am

I think my question is answered.

I want to thank all for participating and especially for the Dhamma quotes.

Thank you.

Annabel
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:45 pm

Annabel wrote:
stuka wrote:All of the silly monkey-chatter aside, let's take a look at just who and what this "Dog" fellow is:


Duane Chapman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duane Lee "Dog" Chapman
Born February 2, 1953 (1953-02-02) (age 55)
Denver, Colorado
Occupation Bounty hunter, television personality
Spouse(s) La Fonda Sue Honeycutt (1972-1977)
Anne M. Tegnell (1979-?)
Lyssa Rae Brittian (1982-1991)
Tawny Marie ?-1994
Beth Smith 2006-present
Children 11, including Duane Lee Chapman, II and Leland Chapman
Website
Official Website

Duane Lee "Dog" Chapman (born February 2, 1953 in Denver, Colorado [1]) is an American bounty hunter and bail bondsman who lives in Honolulu, Hawaii. He stars in Dog the Bounty Hunter, a weekly reality television program which is broadcast on the A&E Network (USA), Virgin 1 (both UK), Bravo, and FOX8/Nine Network (Australia) .

Chapman, a former gang member with 18 prior convictions for armed robbery,[2] was sentenced in Pampa, Texas to a five year prison term in 1977 after being convicted of the first degree murder of Jerry Oliver. Chapman maintains his innocence of murder but suggests he was a legal accessory for not reporting the shooting to the police. He was released on probation after 1 and a half years.[3]

Dog's career in bounty hunting began when he was in court disputing child support. When he told the judge he did not have the money to pay, the judge offered him a deal to bring in a fugitive in exchange for the judge to pay part of Chapman's child support [4] for Duane Lee and Leland Chapman.


:roll:


Dear Stuka,

if I would play chess, I would say the judge made an excellent move.

He helped to reintegrate Dog Chapman into society, and instead of repeating criminal offences to secure his livelihood, he now has a legal activity, which was recently rewarded.

If that isn't rehabilitation as suggested by Dhammakid, I don't know what is.

Instead of breaking the laws as before, he now reinforces them.

This is positive, isn't it? (Unless you want to argue that our laws are crap....)

What strikes me from the Buddhist and Theravada perspective is, that somebody (was) stopped (on) the downward course, as described it the Dhammapada.

When you now argue that he was convicted of murder, the case was apparently so weak they released him after 18 months on probation, so why is that, in the harsh US system?

Then you could also think of also think of Angulimala, who murdered 999, and then became a monk, and an Arahant.

Here is what happened after the racial slur he was accused of:

On December 21, 2007, Roy Innis, the chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality, one of the first to call the A&E network to have the show taken off the air, met with Alecia Colon of The New York Sun and Chapman. Innis stated for the daily newspaper, "After meeting with him and his wife, Beth, and hearing his side of the story, we realized that the controversy had unjustly spiraled out of control without context." [33]

He went on to say, "Duane has taken ownership of the damage of his words and has taken on the responsibility of being a racial healer for our country… I have been with this man several times and had extensive dialogues with him. (Innis' son) and I consider him and his wife good friends. Duane is a changed man and has a higher purpose. Popular television is a wasteland of meaningless titillation and degradation. The Dog's potential to take his celebrity and turn it into something redeeming for our culture and society is immense. It is for these reasons that we want his television show back on the air."


Namaste,

Annabel.


You are way more fascinated with this man and his livelihood than I am. You might consider the difference between a pirate and a privateer. Not much, really.

Forgive my not addressing the points you raise. It simply does not hold my interest at all. It's like trying to stay awake while listening to someone drone on for seven pages about Britney Spearzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:20 pm

Dear Stuka, please feel no obligation to participate in any threads if they bore you, why do you? Image

But thank you for your interesting contributions!

You are way more fascinated with this man and his livelihood than I am.


Just with livelihood...

Forgive my not addressing the points you raise.


You are forgiven. ;)

Best wishes,

Annabel
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

i've watched the show because it was on at a house i was at and i had no control over the TV

he uses lies and deception to catch these people that would go against right speech and the 5 precepts... but he's not a buddhist, so i guess it doesnt matter.

the show however is dreadful....
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:30 pm

I haven't seen him using lies, and he is a practising Christian.

You should not lie is a commandment.

Also, the Dalai Lama said that a white lie is allowed, if greater harm is being prevented this way-

Makes sense to me.
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:30 pm

Annabel wrote:he is a practising Christian.

You should not lie is a commandment.

No it isn't.
- Peter

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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby appicchato » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:26 am

Peter wrote:
Annabel wrote:You should not lie is a commandment.

No it isn't.


Wouldn't 'Thou shall not bear false witness...' qualify?... :shrug:
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:34 am

Annabel wrote:I haven't seen him using lies, and he is a practising Christian.

You should not lie is a commandment.

Also, the Dalai Lama said that a white lie is allowed, if greater harm is being prevented this way-

Makes sense to me.

the dalai lama has nothing to do with theravada buddhism...

but i have seen him lie the one time i watched the show.
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:35 am

appicchato wrote:
Peter wrote:
Annabel wrote:You should not lie is a commandment.

No it isn't.


Wouldn't 'Thou shall not bear false witness...' qualify?... :shrug:

only if its against your neighbor, if its some guy down the way, go for it :rofl:
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:56 am

Bhante,

appicchato wrote:Wouldn't 'Thou shall not bear false witness...' qualify?... :shrug:


In mainstream Christian churches it would, but originally (and still so in Judaism) the commandment covered only false oaths and perjury during legal proceedings. Lying in a more general sense is covered in ordinances that lie outside the ten commandments.

Best wishes,
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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby pererin » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:05 pm

The text under discussion is לֹא-תַעֲנֶה בְרֵעֲךָ עֵד שָׁקֶר (Exodus 20:16). The pertinent word, שָׁקֶר [sheqer (pronounced sheh'-ker)], is analyzed by Strong as "an untruth; by implication, a sham (often adverbial):--without a cause, deceit(-ful), false(-hood, -ly), feignedly, liar, + lie, lying, vain (thing), wrongfully".

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Lexicon offers the following:ׁ

sheqer

1) lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood

1a) deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)

1b) deceit, fraud, wrong

1b1) fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)

1c) falsehood (injurious in testimony)

1c1) testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely

1d) falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)

1e) lie, falsehood (in general)

1e1) false tongue

1f) in vain

Needless to say, both Rabbinic and Christian exegesis (and eisegesis!) have had plenty to say about this injunction; however, there is no doubt that a more general ethical implication of truth-telling can hardly be excluded from what was certainly in origin, as Dhammanando Bhikkhu has pointed out, a legal formula.

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Re: Bounty-hunters-wrong livelihood? Or a good job?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:23 pm

appicchato wrote:
Peter wrote:
Annabel wrote:You should not lie is a commandment.

No it isn't.


Wouldn't 'Thou shall not bear false witness...' qualify?... :shrug:


That's what I thought too.

In any case, my main point was that lies are "prohibited" by both dhamma and Christianity.
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