Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Josh
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Josh »

I've been studying Sanghanussati recently, and it was my understanding that a sotāpanna would never break the Five Precepts
, but I don't recall reading anything about streamwinners not breaching any other precepts...

This is from Piya Tan's study guide on Sanghanussati
4. The streamwinner (sotāpanna, one who has entered the stream leading to nirvana) has broken the
first 3 fetters that bind one to cyclic existence (sasāra), namely: (1) self-identity view, (2) doubts, (3)
attachment to rules and rituals. Such a one will take rebirth amongst devas and humans for a maximum of 7
lives, after which he will attain final nirvana. Due to his spiritual attainment, a streamwinner will never
break any of the five precepts nor be reborn lower than the human realm (A 1:231-235).
:anjali:

Josh
"What is the accomplishment of faith? Herein a householder is possessed of faith, he believes in the Enlightenment of the Perfect One (Tathagata): Thus, indeed, is that Blessed One: he is the pure one, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and conduct, well-gone, the knower of worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, all-knowing and blessed. This is called the accomplishment of faith."

- AN 8:54
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poto
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by poto »

Ben wrote:This, I don't understand. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Sorry Ben, I was a bit tired when I posted that last night. I should have used the word immediately instead of automatically as such:
poto wrote:I do not think it is wise to assume that mere stream entry equates with immediately receiving the fruits of stream entry.
7 lifetimes can be a very long time. I do not see how being unable to fall back equates to immediately reaching perfection. Many of the fetters and defilements are still present in a sotapanna, and it seems logical to me that those who are not very far along on the path might succumb to those things from time to time as they arise. I do not take this to mean that one has fallen off the path, but more like a minor stumbling. I do however think that an ariya would be able to recognize and recover quickly from any missteps.

I do not think that a sotapanna could continually and willfully do unwholesome things, but I do think that mistakes and perhaps moments of weakness are entirely possible. Any being that is not free from ignorance, hatred, anger, sensual craving, etc., might at some point act under the influence of such things.
Ben wrote: Further, if the words of an ignorant arahant
That I found kind of disturbing. Please don't mangle my words. I specifically said that arahants have extinguished ignorance while sotapannas have not. I would never call an arahant ignorant.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
villkorkarma
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by villkorkarma »

An Arahant is ignorant becourse he is not a Buddha yet.
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )
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cooran
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by cooran »

Poto said: 7 lifetimes can be a very long time.
The Teaching is not that it takes 7 lifetimes to move to the next stage – the Teaching is that it takes ‘’not more than’’ seven lifetimes. Arahantship can occur within the same lifetime in which the disciple became a Stream Winner.

Stream Winner is the hardest of the levels to reach ¬ if it occurs at all, it can take aeons and aeons and aeons of wandering through Samsara -after that, it is automatic – Arahant in not more than 7 lifetimes.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu has some articles on Stream Entry:
The Character of the Stream-winner
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... #character" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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daverupa
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by daverupa »

villkorkarma wrote:An Arahant is ignorant becourse he is not a Buddha yet.
This is incorrect. Buddha simply means "first arahant" in this sense; an arahant and a Buddha experience no suffering, but a Buddha (re-)discovered the Dhamma, while an arahant learned it from a Buddha's particular dispensation of the Dhamma. Both have put an end to avijja.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

poto wrote: Sorry Ben, I was a bit tired when I posted that last night.
No worries.
poto wrote:I should have used the word immediately instead of automatically as such:
poto wrote:I do not think it is wise to assume that mere stream entry equates with immediately receiving the fruits of stream entry.
Phala (fruition) consciousness immediately follows path (magga) consciousness. So, the fruits of stream-entry do follow immediately. It doesn't mean one can rest on one's laurels. But one has 'entered the stream of liberation'.
poto wrote:7 lifetimes can be a very long time. I do not see how being unable to fall back equates to immediately reaching perfection. Many of the fetters and defilements are still present in a sotapanna, and it seems logical to me that those who are not very far along on the path might succumb to those things from time to time as they arise. I do not take this to mean that one has fallen off the path, but more like a minor stumbling. I do however think that an ariya would be able to recognize and recover quickly from any missteps.
I am not suggesting that sotapatti is arahanta. What I am suggesting, with support from the suttas and from Venerable Ledi Sayadaw, is that on sota-ariya-magga, one's sila becomes pure. Certainly there are fetters still present that are only eradicated with sakadagamita, anagamita and arahanta.
poto wrote:I do not think that a sotapanna could continually and willfully do unwholesome things,
I agree here. Unintentional just as the sutta suggests above.
poto wrote:but I do think that mistakes and perhaps moments of weakness are entirely possible. Any being that is not free from ignorance, hatred, anger, sensual craving, etc., might at some point act under the influence of such things.
This is where I disagree.
poto wrote:
Ben wrote: Further, if the words of an ignorant arahant
That I found kind of disturbing. Please don't mangle my words. I specifically said that arahants have extinguished ignorance while sotapannas have not. I would never call an arahant ignorant.
[/quote]My apologies. Its a product of my aversion to those who would dismiss the words of commentarians.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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cooran
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by cooran »

Hello daverupa, all,

A Samma-sambuddha rediscovers the Dhamma after it has ceased to exist in the world. Arahants do attain buddhahood as do pacceka-buddhas, and the term Savaka-buddha has been in use in Theravada since early in the history of buddhism.

Sāvaka-buddha (Pāli) is a rarely used term in Theravada Buddhism, identifying enlightened 'disciples of a Buddha' as Buddhas. These disciples are those enlightened individuals who gain Nibbana by hearing the Dhamma as initially taught by a Sammasambuddha. They might also lead others to enlightenment, but cannot teach the Dhamma in a time or world where it has been forgotten, because they depend upon a tradition that stretches back to a Sammasambuddha.

When the term Sāvakabuddha is used, it refers to a third type of Buddha, other than the Sammasambuddha and Paccekabuddha. The term Savakabuddha is used in Theravadin commentaries, and does not occur in the scriptures of the Pali Canon. The term regularly appears in Mahayana texts such as in Mahayana texts like Shantideva's Bodhisattvacharyavatara and in the Tibetan tradition. Śrāvaka (Pāli: Sāvaka) literally means "one who hears", i.e. a Buddhist who follows the path to enlightenment by means of hearing the instructions of others.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Savaka-buddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanissaro Bhikkhu speaks of this here:
In the early centuries after the Buddha's passing away, as Buddhism became a popular religion, the idea was formalized that there were three paths to awakening to choose from: the path to awakening as a disciple of a Buddha (savaka); the path to awakening as a private Buddha (pacceka-buddha), i.e., one who attained awakening on his own but was not able to teach the path of practice to others; and the path to awakening as a Rightly Self-awakened Buddha (samma sambuddha). Each path was defined as consisting of perfections (paramī) of character, but there was a question as to what those perfections were and how the paths differed from one another. The Theravadins, for instance, specified ten perfections, and organized their Jataka collection so that it culminated in ten tales, each illustrating one of the perfections. The Sarvastivadins, on the other hand, specified six perfections, and organized their Jataka collection accordingly.

......................

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
daverupa
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by daverupa »

I was commenting on the implication that arahants still have work to do. That arahants can be classed as one or another type of Buddha isn't attested in the Suttas, and therefore I find clarifying these types to be wholly tangential. Despite such linguistic specifications they have all ended avijja, and that was the sole point to be made.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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robertk
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,

I'd question the basis upon Bhikkhu Bodhi would say "even though a noble disciple may commit such an offence unintentionally or through lack of knowledge" in light of Channa's suicide and given that Vin.iii.71 declares that attempting suicide is a paaraajika offence. He even declare his intention in the presence of ven. Sariputta... surely it was not an offence committed "unintentionally or through lack of knowledge".

Metta,
Retro. :)
Attempting suicide is not a parijika offense.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,

You'll have to take that up with Damien Keown then...

Buddhism and Suicide --- The Case of Channa by Damien Keown
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/suicide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would you happen to know where we could find "Vin.iii.71" in order to check the actual wording?

Damien says "We might expect at least a mention of the third paaraajika, which was introduced specifically to prevent suicide by monks."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by alan »

I think putting emphasis on "perfect sila" first is a mistake. Why? It creates an impossible hurdle. And some may spend time pretending to be perfect--figuring how to appear perfect--convincing themselves they are perfect--and never actually encounter there own imperfections. Not talking about anyone here, of course. But the tendency exists, and we see it manifested in most religions.
Personally, if sila is first I'm out of luck. Lots of work to do on that department. But I can study, learn, debate, discuss...and admit when I'm wrong without feeling the whole enterprise is lost.
My opinion, for what it is worth, is that perfect sila is a byproduct of awakening, not a necessary precondition.
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robertk
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,

You'll have to take that up with Damien Keown then...

Buddhism and Suicide --- The Case of Channa by Damien Keown
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/suicide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would you happen to know where we could find "Vin.iii.71" in order to check the actual wording?

Damien says "We might expect at least a mention of the third paaraajika, which was introduced specifically to prevent suicide by monks."

Metta,
Retro. :)
Mr Damien has it completely wrong - but I have no idea how he got his confused idea-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch04.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The parajika offense is for killing a human being aside from oneself. A bhikkhu who attempts suicide incurs a dukkata.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,

It would seem you are indeed correct, and Damien Keown is in error. Thank you for the correction.

And back to how that came into discussion in the first place.... as a dukkata (wrong action), attempted suicide is still a fault and would not be aligned with the notion of 'perfect sila'.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by alan »

"Perfect sila" is an ideology. It does not actually exist. Attempts to attain it are not just doomed to failure, they create a fantasy world were people pretend to be better then they really are--therefore blocking actual change. Drop it. It will be good for you.
When I'm old and suffering, I might kill myself. It would be rational.
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cooran
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This might be of interest:

EXTRACT: SUICIDE IN BUDDHISM -- POST-CANONICAL DEFLECTIONS - Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari

...... All this rather ramified arguments on both sides of the question of suicide for a Buddhist disciple [ only for an ailing monk who is physically or mentally ill ] are indicative of the unavoidable massive assaults, as the centuries rolled by, on the fortress of Buddhist monastic discipline. We maintain that in view of the absolute standards which appear to be maintained on this issue in the sutta versions which we have presented elsewhere under the study of EUTHANASIA, the Commentarial tradition of the Samantapasadika is totally undermining the position taken up by the sutta tradition. We feel the Commentary's explanation of attànaü na pàtetabbaü of the Parajika section of the Vinaya Pitaka does not in any way lead to an idea of suicide.
There are two things involved here. 1. What we consider to be the error in translation. The genesis of this, for whatever reason, seems to lie outside the Commentary 2. The laxity involved and the liberties taken in the attempt to smuggle in a few cases of 'so-called' allowable suicides. The Commentary must take full responsibility for this. Which of these preceded, the error in translation or the laxity in Commentarial interpretation, is the question. The two Sub-Commentaries on the Samantapasadika, Saratthadipani and Vimativinodani which came after seven centuries and much later, are equally well silent on this issue. Both are identical in their comments and pick up only a single grammatical laxity in the use of the accusative case instead of the nominative [ na attànaü pàtetebbaü instead if attà pàtetabbo ]. Apparently they both decided on a wise policy of 'Let sleeping dogs lie at rest.'
http://www.metta.lk/english/suicide.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.metta.lk/english/euthanasia.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EUTHANASIA - [ A study in relation to original Theravada Buddhist thinking ] by Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari
http://www.metta.lk/english/euthanasia.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Buddhist Views of Suicide and Euthanasia, By Carl B. Becker
Philosophy East and West V. 40 No. 4 (October 1990) pp. 543-555
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/becker.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Criteria for Judging the Unwholesomeness of Actions in the Texts of Theravaada Buddhism By Peter Harvey
http://www.buddhistethics.org/2/harvey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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