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Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka - Dhamma Wheel

Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

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Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:25 pm

Greetings all,

Not long ago, I posed the following question to some Dhamma friends....

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I've been having a look at this summary diagram (sourced from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy ... arise4.htm) of the various factors of dependent origination and their classification as either kilesa, kamma or vipaka...

Image

I'm just wondering if anyone could provide any sutta (or other Theravadin) references that might help to shed some light on the alignment of these classifications with the various dependent origination factors?


.... to which venerable Nyanatusita responded (reposted here with author's permission)...

The Petakopadesa, a work on hermeneutics closely related to the Netti, gives three classifications of dependent origination. I shall quote Nyanamoli's translation (Pitaka Disclosure § 374–79, PTS ed. p.99f):

374. Herein, there is Dependent Origination in three ways, … four ways, … two ways.
375. Herein, there is Dependent Origination in three ways as cause (hetu), fruit (phala), and outcome (nissanda). Then ignorance, determinations (sankhaara), craving, and assuming (upaadaana), are the cause; consciousness, name and form, the sixfold base, contact and feeling, are the fruit; being (bhava), birth, and ageing-and-death are the outcome.
376. How in four ways? As cause, condition, ripening, and outcome. Ignorance and craving, determinations and assuming: these are the cause. Consciousness is name-and-form's condition, and name-and-form when it arises is [a condition] for the sixfold base, [and so] contact and feeling: these are the condition. Being is ripening (vipaaka). Birth and ageing-and-death are the outcome.
377. How there is Dependent Origination in two ways? Ignorance, determinations, craving, and assuming, are Origin. Consciousness, name-and-form, the sixfold base, contact, feeling, being, birth, [ageing-and-] death are Suffering. (Cf. § 52)
378. But since with cessation of ignorance, cessation of determinations, etc., these, as opposites, are the other two Truths.

'Outcome' applies to the result in this life, while 'fruit' applies to the next life. Regarding the bhava as vipaaka in the fourfold way Nyanamoli notes: ''The allusion is apparently to the second sort of being in the twofold division at, e.g. Pa.tis I 50—2, namely being as action (kamma-bhava) and ''being-as-reappearance'' (uppatti-bhava).”

The last, two way classification is also found in the Dvayataananupassanaa Sutta in the Sutta Nipata, where it is stated that the various factors of dependent origination should be regarded in terms of arising and cessation of suffering, e.g.:
“`Whatever suffering comes into being, all that is caused by ignorance' this is one way of regarding. `With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance there is no origination of suffering” this is the second way of regarding.” (Sn 734–5)


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So we managed to identify a commentarial explanation for the explanation, but I was still curious as to what the commentarial exegesis was based on...

Even if there is no single sutta that categorises them all explicitly as per the original diagram (which I won't yet rule out, of course), I'd also be interested also in any suttas that might even just explicitly categorise one or two of them at a time. It could even be 12 different suttas explaining the classification of each of the 12 conditions... that would probably do just fine.

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I bring this to your attention as I feel the subject may be of interest to some people, and in the hope that we might be able to pick up where we left off the discussion, and identify the earliest known basis for these classifications. All comments, questions etc. welcome as always.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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stuka
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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:26 am

Are there any Sutta passages in which the Buddha lists this "kammabhava" as one of the nidanas in the context of paticcasamuppada....?

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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:03 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:34 am

I say:

karma = attachment, becoming & birth

vipaka = dukkha & avicca (reinforced or increased - yes, we can become more stupid!)

kilesa = tanha

the rest is neutral
Last edited by Element on Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:02 am

Greetings Element,

Do you have any sutta references to support those beliefs?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:11 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:27 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:32 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:38 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:50 am


Element

Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Element » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:12 pm


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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:49 pm


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Re: Dependent origination factors as kilesa, kamma and vipaka

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:00 pm

Thank you, Bhante.


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