the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
alan
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Re: Rebirth

Postby alan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:47 am

rickety,
There is nothing in Buddhism that says you will go to hell if you don't believe. Where did you get that idea?
If you are serious then pay attention to the posts from Tex and Ben. I found them to be very worthwhile.
Also, it is very useful to read the Suttas. Getting a decent grasp on the Dhamma is a prerequisite for decisions about concepts like Kamma and rebirth. You may be surprised to find your objections fade as awareness increases.

Digity
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Re: Rebirth

Postby Digity » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:06 am

Response to ricketybridge:

I don't understand how you can remove rebirth from the picture and still think you have the dhamma intact. I take rebirth literally, not metaphorically. Sure, I don't have any evidence, but there is evidence out there that suggest it might be true. For instance, children with past life memories. Although, I think it's perfectly normal to have some healthy skepticism about it.

I don't understand why you're surprised the Buddha taught about rebirth. To me it fits in perfectly with all the other teachings. Samsara itself is continuous rebirth in realms going higher and lower. It's this perpetual wandering from life to life that the Buddha taught us we needed to escape. If you don't believe in rebirth then what do you think happens after you die? What do people mean when they say they take rebirth metaphorically? If you take it metaphorically, then what does that even mean once you're dead?

Anyway, I'm really curious what you have to say, because I don't understand how someone can not take rebirth literally and still understand the dhamma.

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Ben
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Re: Rebirth

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:33 am

Greetings Digity,
Even the Buddha did not try to correct the view of rebirth-sceptics in the Apannaka Sutta.
I think we should respect where Rick is at and respond in a matter that is appropriate to his particular situation. What we know about the Dhamma is that it leads one from ignorance to knowledge, not from ignorance to blind belief. If Rick engages with the practice and makes progress on the path, that is the only thing that matters.
Feel free to get involved in the great rebirth debate in the Dhammic Free For All forum. Debate is not appropriate for this forum.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:36 am

Greetings,

:goodpost:

MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: Rebirth

Postby kirk5a » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:14 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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adeh
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby adeh » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:30 pm


ricketybridge
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Re: Rebirth

Postby ricketybridge » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:59 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Rebirth

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:08 pm

Hi Kirk,

I agree with you on this. Belief in rebirth is an imminently useful belief to subscribe to in terms of practice. It may not be completely proveable but it cannot be disproved either. In such a situation why not take on a belief that is helpful to yourself and others, leading to wholesomeness and goodness. We do not need to box in the Buddhas teaching and think he taught only certain types (ie proveable) of teachings. It was his genius IMO that he could use whatever he had to hand to further the practice in his disciples.

Ben, incidentally I remember reading a sutta about his description about the end of the world and him saying only a stream entrant would believe it. I think a stream entrant sees the lengths he goes to find the truth, hence believes statements that they cannot discern themselves without special psychic abilities.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Digity
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Digity » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:21 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: Rebirth

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:46 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:27 pm

When I say that rebirth is metaphorical... what I really mean is that there is no literal self that gets reborn. In this way, I can see it in every moment, and every life. I also can imagine this for every expansion and contraction of a world, or every kalpa... but I don't really try to run with this, because it's a papañca, or a big diffusion.

I think it's like a fractal. It's really a matter of finding out what the useful zoom is (a focus) for one's own practice, which will lead to a complete unbinding. For some it's moments, and for others it's lives.

The Dhamma that we're studying right now (based around the paticca samuppada) was specifically designed for a human life, by the Buddha. This is what a practitioner really should focus on, to make any progress with it. What does the humans have? They have moments, and lives... those should be studied.

:anjali:

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:53 am

Greetings greggorious,

You've got here a small sample of the diverse range of views that exist within the Theravada tradition on the subject of rebirth.

So diverse in fact that the following topic has 98 pages and is still running...

the great rebirth debate
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41

Since the Discovering Theravada forum is not intended for debate, it seems appropriate at this point in time to close the topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

unspoken
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Location: Malaysia

Possible rebirth?

Postby unspoken » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:07 pm

We know that how we die, will affect our next life. Eg: If we die sad, we will reborn in a depressed realm.

My question is : If we die suddenly when we sleep, let's say we are sleeping, but suddenly the wall collapse and bricks knocked the head and die instantly. Then what are the possibilities of our next rebirth?

unspoken
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby unspoken » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:59 am

Or at least some one knows something that can relate to it?

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Ben
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:17 am

Death can come at any time, unspoken. Rather than worry about where you will end up if you die while asleep, I suggest you concentrate on doing what needs to be done to eliminate the causes of suffering in this life. This, I think, will be more beneficial.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Aloka
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby Aloka » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:23 am


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ground
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby ground » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:37 am


unspoken
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Location: Malaysia

Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby unspoken » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:40 am

I just curious for those who passed away due to some accidents when they are sleeping. Where are they going?

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ground
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby ground » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:44 am

We do not know what deeds done and what kind of motivations of the past are effective in others. And even if we did know we could not infer the fruition.

kind regards

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acinteyyo
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:39 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.


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