Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:21 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.

It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.

tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Coinsciousness conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.

Yes.

tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.

No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

Does the cessation of a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.

Clearly this is so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.

It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.
I thought I gave it an answer that was considered. It was just a couple a paragraphs down.

tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.

No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?
You are assuming ontology here. I am not. First of all we are stuck with figurative speech. You'll need to explain what you mean by cease. I have already explained what I mean by it, but what you mean is probably the function of what follows:

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler). Does ceasing to observe a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.

Clearly this is so.
And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:56 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.

And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?

tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?

I will persist in attempting to clarify my position as long as you persist in attempting to understand it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?


To quote:
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler) . . . It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.

tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?

I will persist in attempting to clarify my position and long as you persist in attempting to understand it.
But are you trying to understand my position?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:22 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.

Sankhata dhamma (i.e. any aspect of samsaric/conditioned existence), remembering that "No [dhamma] is a [dhamma], until it is an observed [dhamma]"

tiltbillings wrote:But are you trying to understand my position?

I believe I've understood your position since before we even started this topic, but I have been open throughout to advances upon it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does consciousness cease, literally with the cessation of ignorance in the living arahant?

Conditioned consciousness does - beyond that, it's not for me to say.

sankhara:
(1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M.10),
(2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking,
(3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M.44).

Do these things literally cease, no longer to function in the living arahant?

Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than "function", that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...

Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (not being loka) is not dependent upon avijja.

(I have no doubt that will seem unnecessarily oblique, but it is what it is... "realism" as defined earlier included "objectively existing world... not dependent on our minds", and to me, "physiological functions" falls into that category, hence why I asked if you could reframe your question).




Oh, no no no! Pls don't hold this view. How will the living Arahant function without MN 44's sankharas? Do note that MN 44 explicitly addresses the arising of the cittasankhara for those arising from Nirodha Sammapatti, which is accessible only to Anagamis and Arahants.

Were you perhaps thinking that these sankharas in an Arahant might be unconditioned, in the same way as conditioned consciousness ceases for an Arahant in your view?

Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"? IMHO, this is a unicorn born from Ven Nanananda's unfortunate translations. Ven N translates "tadappatittham vinnanam" in SN 22.53 as "that unestablished consciousness...". Even Ven Thanissaro opts for the much saner translation of "consciousness, thus not having landed..." and BB renders it as "with consciousness unestablished...".

Ven N finds more support for this unicorn in SN 4.23 where he translates -

Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena Godhiko kulaputto parinibbuto.

"O! monks, the clansman Godhika passed away with an unestablished consciousness:

Nibbana Sermons 3


IMHO, this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist, whether conditioned or unconditioned. The translation totally ignores the context to which the Buddha gave the above answer -

“Eso kho, bhikkhave, māro pāpimā godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṃ samanvesati— ‘kattha godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitan’ti? Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena godhiko kulaputto parinibbuto”ti.

That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Godhika, wondering " Where now has the consciousness of the clansman been established?" However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Godhika has attained final Nibbana.


Like those other mystical mumbo jumbo translations of that other unicorn "viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ", the Canon's scanty references to "consciousness not being established" has been reified into an "unestablished consciousness".

I've searched the Canon, and I can't seem to find any context in which consciousness is not estasblished, except in the context of Parinibbana. So, even if this unicorn exists, it does not seem relevant to an living Arahant.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:52 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:Oh, no no no! Pls don't hold this view. How will the living Arahant function without MN 44's sankharas? Do note that MN 44 explicitly addresses the arising of the cittasankhara for those arising from Nirodha Sammapatti, which is accessible only to Anagamis and Arahants. Were you perhaps thinking that these sankharas in an Arahant might be unconditioned, in the same way as conditioned consciousness ceases for an Arahant in your view?

Implicit in your objection is the assumption that discussion of the experience of the arahant is to be included as a subject within the sutta to that point.

On the other hand, I believe it only applies to the tail end portion, which is an abbreviated form of what is known loosely as "transcendental dependent origination"...

"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"

"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."

"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"

"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."

"What lies on the other side of release?"

"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."

"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."

Until that point of the sutta, it is referring to either a puthujjana or sekha, who has yet to attain to the "other side of ignorance". It is common for suttas to start from 'lesser' experience, and ramp up until they conclude with the 'sublime'.

As Venerable Nanavira says in his note on dependent origination. - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=62

Sankhārā in the usual twelve-factored paticcasamuppāda series can include such a mixed collection of things as intentions of merit, demerit, and imperturbability, in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling. These things, one and all, are things that other things depend on, and as such are sankhārā of one kind or another; and so long as there are sankhārā of any kind at all there is viññāna and everything dependent upon viññāna, in other words there is paticcasamuppāda.

I assume you agree paticcasamuppāda does not apply to arahants?

Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"?

Not particularly... though trying to play me off against either Geoff or venerable Nanananda, isn't likely to be particularly successful as a means of convincing me of anything.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:58 am

Sylvester wrote:this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist

The only one I see here who is attempting to reify anything is you with your penchant for jumping to fallacious conclusions. Do you not know of any other way to communicate besides the very lame tactic of reduction to the absurd and the equally lame tactic of the fallacy of distraction? Life is far too short to engage in such bullshit games.
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:00 am

Play nice, gentlmen, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:04 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than "function", that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...

Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (not being loka) is not dependent upon avijja.


I'm sorry, but do you know Rahogata-sutta (SN 36.11)? It clearly explains what ceases when… There's no need for creativity here.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
piotr
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:10 am

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:I'm sorry, but do you know Rahogata-sutta (SN 36.11)? It clearly explains what ceases when… There's no need for creativity here.

No need to be sorry, Piotr.

As the sutta says...

SN 36.11 wrote:"There are, monk, these six quietenings. In him who has attained the first absorption, speech is quietened. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking are quietened. Having attained the third absorption, rapture is quietened. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation is quietened. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling are quietened. In a taint-free monk greed is quietened, hatred is quietened, delusion is quietened."

... and as quoted in my last posting...

Nanavira Thera wrote:Sankhārā in the usual twelve-factored paticcasamuppāda series can include such a mixed collection of things as intentions of merit, demerit, and imperturbability, in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling. These things, one and all, are things that other things depend on, and as such are sankhārā of one kind or another; and so long as there are sankhārā of any kind at all there is viññāna and everything dependent upon viññāna, in other words there is paticcasamuppāda.

I assume you agree paticcasamuppāda does not apply to arahants?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:16 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

The sutta says that in-and-outbreathing ceases in 4th jhāna. You've said that this saṅkhāra ceases for arahant. Are you saying that arahants abide in 4th jhāna all the time?
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
piotr
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:23 am

Greetings Piotr,

piotr wrote:The sutta says that in-and-outbreathing ceases in 4th jhāna.

It does.

piotr wrote:You've said that this saṅkhāra ceases for arahant.

Yes.

piotr wrote:Are you saying that arahants abide on 4th jhāna all the time?

No. Neither did I claim that the cessation of kāyasankhāro is the cause for the attainment of the 4th jhana.

Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.
Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
What does that tell you?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:26 am

Hi retrofuturist

That's why I've mentioned your creativty. I find it useless in light of Rahogata-sutta.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
piotr
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
You mean they do not see it any more.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:28 am

Greetings Piotr,

piotr wrote:That's why I've mentioned your creativty. I find it useless in light of Rahogata-sutta.

Your use of "creativity" in this sense is just a sly ad-hominem attack on an interpretation you disagree with.

Meaningless and of no value.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:30 am

Sylvester wrote:Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"? IMHO, this is a unicorn born from Ven Nanananda's unfortunate translations. Ven N translates "tadappatittham vinnanam" in SN 22.53 as "that unestablished consciousness..." ... this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist

As I've already taken the time to reply in detail to your query, your repeated and intentional fallback to absurd characterizations is completely fallacious and does nothing to contribute to the discussion in an honest and meaningful way.

Ñāṇa wrote:As for my rendering of "unestablished" (appatiṭṭha) as an adjective for a "consciousness which does not become established," this is in keeping with the sense of the above from Ven. Ñāṇananda. One could designate it as mental-consciousness (manoviññāṇa), as per MN 38: "[W]hen consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness." This is what the early ābhidhammikas have decided, adding that said mental-consciousness is classified within the unincluded level (apariyāpanna bhūmi). That's fine by me, but doesn't really convey the full meaning of Ven. Ñāṇananda's interpretation of SN 12.64 and Udāna 8.1 (PTS Ud 80).


Sylvester wrote:I've searched the Canon, and I can't seem to find any context in which consciousness is not estasblished, except in the context of Parinibbana. So, even if this unicorn exists, it does not seem relevant to an living Arahant.

Your reading of the relevant suttas is mistaken. Yet once again you're running off at the mouth without having the foggiest idea of what Ven. Ñāṇananda and Ven. Bodhi and Ven. Ṭhānissaro are indicating.
Last edited by Nyana on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:41 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
You mean they do not see it any more.

Yes. They do not "see" (i.e. experience) any sankharas.*

I shall not use our fabricated "tools of measurement" (i.e. five aggregates) on what they see, given they are measureless arahants, but whatever they see is not a sankhata (formed) dhamma (thing).

Metta,
Retro. :)

* (small caveat... I acknowledged earlier that the structural relationship of dependent origination in cessation mode need not be instantaneous, but that it may fall away akin to how regular dependent origination flows through. I ventured a couple of times, both usually lost in the tide of discussion, that this may be where there's an opportunity to distinguish between "nibbana with fuel remaining" and "nibbana with no fuel remaining", or alternatively arahattamagga and arahattaphala, or alternatively "knowledge" and "release" ... but they were just ideas I floated out there, I'm not wedded to any of them.)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
You mean they do not see it any more.

Yes. They do not "see" (i.e. experience) any sankharas.*

I shall not use our fabricated "tools of measurement" (i.e. five aggregates) on what they see, given they are measureless arahants, but whatever they see is not a sankhata (formed) dhamma (thing).

Metta,
Retro.
And no saññā, or vedanā, or viññāna.

whatever they see is not a sankhata (formed) dhamma (thing).
This makes utterly no sense whatsoever. The arahants seeing may not be conditioned by greed, hatred and delusion, but to say they see nothing put-together . . . . What does that mean? If an arahant gets a toothache, it must then be in an unconditioned tooth, and his knowing that it is a toothache cannot be dependent upon any sort of memory, and the knowing certainly cannot be dependent upon any sort of sensory input, and there can be no awareness of it, since awareness sensory data is a dependent processes of put-together "things."

Maybe arahants don't have toothaches because they really do not have bodies or minds.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19619
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:52 am

Greetings Tilt,

Your post reflects why we cannot reach consensus - different definitions and understanding of key terms, specifically 'sankata' and what constitutes a formed dhamma/experience... I'm comfortable not to come to consensus on this issue, and i shan't attempt measurement of arahant by conditioned measures.

Once again, what do the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas mean to you. The suttas claim cessation of those things for the arahant yet you seem to take offense at this notion and decline to explain what their cessation means to you. Perhaps there is no pre-death explanation that meets with your comfort?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed formatting (it was originally typed from my phone)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14677
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Goofaholix, Tmsn and 11 guests