Greetings,
I've always wondered about the practicalities of what a bhikkhu does when they enter into the homeless life, with the intention of being committeed to it for life. (i.e. not a Thai teenager who is becoming a monk, knowing full well it's likely to be for a limited duration)
In sorting out their affairs, do they generally give their wealth and assets to their closest family members? To charity? To the monastery they are joining?
What kind of personal items can a bhikkhu keep from his lay-life and use in a Dhammic capacity? e.g. What about a laptop, used as a reference tool, to communicate with others. What about things like Dhamma books etc. which they may already own and have a practical use for? What about his toothbrush?!
Could they for example donate their superannuation to the monestary to help pay for things for the Sangha (e.g. dental care, doctor's bills, supplies, construction materials) and so on?
I realise it's a pretty broad-brush question... so feel free to reply in kind, or with whatever you think may be of interest to others.
To people ever leave things in safe-keeping with relatives or friends just on the off chance that things mightn't go to plan and they return to the household life?
Metta,
Retro.
When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
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When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
Good questions. And what about health care insurance?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
This one depends on what country he is in i suppose, im not familliar with healthcare insurance procedure (healthcare is free here) so i dont know if different countries have different rules about healthcare insuranceGood questions. And what about health care insurance?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
Area specific, many countries provide free healthcare, in Burma Sitagu Sayadaw set up a hospital solely for monks, and I believe there are some wards, and hospitals in thailand which solely look after monks. I would imagine where insurance was needed the laity would donate the insurance, but I have a suspicion there is an insurance firm which has a special health care plan for monks but not 100% sure I saw or heard about one once?pink_trike wrote:Good questions. And what about health care insurance?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
Hi Paul,
The following is my experience only...in Thailand...
The following is my experience only...in Thailand...
Haven't seen anyone (lay, or monastic) with health insurance...but that's just me...retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I've always wondered about the practicalities of what a bhikkhu does when they enter into the homeless life, with the intention of being committeed to it for life. (i.e. not a Thai teenager who is becoming a monk, knowing full well it's likely to be for a limited duration)
In sorting out their affairs, do they generally give their wealth and assets to their closest family members? To charity? To the monastery they are joining?
All of the above...
What kind of personal items can a bhikkhu keep from his lay-life and use in a Dhammic capacity? e.g. What about a laptop, used as a reference tool, to communicate with others. What about things like Dhamma books etc. which they may already own and have a practical use for? What about his toothbrush?!
All of the above...and more...
Could they for example donate their superannuation to the monestary to help pay for things for the Sangha (e.g. dental care, doctor's bills, supplies, construction materials) and so on?
Yes
I realise it's a pretty broad-brush question... so feel free to reply in kind, or with whatever you think may be of interest to others.
To people ever leave things in safe-keeping with relatives or friends just on the off chance that things mightn't go to plan and they return to the household life?
Human nature being what it is...undoubtedly...
Metta,
Retro.
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
Greetings venerable Appicchato,
Thank you.
Metta,
Retro.
Thank you.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
In the U.S. there is no national health insurance and most people are on their own if their employer does not pay for it.
The monks I know mostly go without health insurance because the cost is too high for the community / vihara.
Usually there is at least one member of the community who is a physician who will offer some basic services for the monks for dana, but if a monk needed major surgery, it would be difficult to obtain.
The monks I know mostly go without health insurance because the cost is too high for the community / vihara.
Usually there is at least one member of the community who is a physician who will offer some basic services for the monks for dana, but if a monk needed major surgery, it would be difficult to obtain.
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
Monks are allowed to keep the 8 Requisites, but I have heard that in practice, some monks have kept more than that. Certainly a laptop would be useful and used for spreading Dhamma, such as communicating here on Dhamma Wheel and other forums.
Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
That is one that I am more conflicted about. I have no problem reducing it to a robe, bowl, toothbrush, razor and a sieve for water. If you would like to share a toothbrush you can keep it from then on. Thread, fingers and tongue will work for that. Health care is great but one is expected to settle for one's own urine if necessary and I can live with the consequences of that even given what we know medically at present. Sickness, old age and death are going to happen for sure and I think socially that we are in many ways overly obsessed with preventing them at any great cost for a very few as opposed to offering more basic or rudimentary forms of care to far more human beings along with far better health care guidance and policies overall.TheDhamma wrote:Monks are allowed to keep the 8 Requisites, but I have heard that in practice, some monks have kept more than that. Certainly a laptop would be useful and used for spreading Dhamma, such as communicating here on Dhamma Wheel and other forums.
It would be immensely useful to me but a laptop is not a requisite, plain and simple, as far as I can see. I can't see a justification for it at all, but I can see it being allowed. There has been a longstanding great respect for books at least since the Tipitaka was recorded as text. On the other hand there is an ambiguous ambivalence about the ownership of books, even the authorship of them so I can't see having to argue for it with anyone who takes a strict view about it. Even books and communications appear to be something limited by or to necessity for monastics and that makes complete sense to me. Then again, a laptop is the book and mode of communication of our present and emergent future, so where does that place it in terms of the right view of a noble disciple? In my observations monastics use these kinds of tools or facilities if they are made available in the same ways that anyone would in the context of all of the restrictions which do apply to their training but they make no effort to claim ownership of these things or defend the possession of them. Most of these things that I have seen at monasteries have belonged to the non-profit society that actually controls those assets. That seems acceptable to me so long as the board has a significant representation and legal voting involvement by both the lay and ordained members and all are well cognizant of and meeting their specific duties and responsibilities.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
This scenario may seem equitable in the Occidental sense, but is not in the Oriental...again, monasteries(in Asia) are not democracies...nathan wrote:Most of these things that I have seen at monasteries have belonged to the non-profit society that actually controls those assets. That seems acceptable to me so long as the board has a significant representation and legal voting involvement by both the lay and ordained members...
Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
In recent years, in the Western monasteries, I have seen an increase of new candidates arriving to become monks and bringing their laptops with them. Most of them also kept them after they were ordained. But in some stricter places they might be asked to "give it up" at least in the sense of not using it at certain times or simply making it available to all community members, i.e. offering it to the Sangha as a whole. Many monks these days own MP3 players or iPods, also in Thailand (usually gifts from relatives). This is meant to be used for listening to Dhamma talks or learning Pali chanting.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: When a bhikkhu-to-be renounces worldly possessions
I think I can see how that would be so. I've long taken the pov that there is no point learning how to let go of my body and mind if I can't drop all the other junk at a moments notice. Thanks much for the perspectives. It is best to approach things with the appropriate respect and prudence. Short of being informed beforehand one is risking appearing or behaving inappropriately without intending so. That's the kinds of concerns for those who are setting out in a sincere pursuit of good results.appicchato wrote:This scenario may seem equitable in the Occidental sense, but is not in the Oriental...again, monasteries(in Asia) are not democracies...nathan wrote:Most of these things that I have seen at monasteries have belonged to the non-profit society that actually controls those assets. That seems acceptable to me so long as the board has a significant representation and legal voting involvement by both the lay and ordained members...
Honestly, what do I do if you have absolutely no desire to be anything but a humble quiet bhikkhu somewhere and I can't even do that? I don't mean this as a commentary but in the sense that I honestly hope to be able to shut up and listen for a long time before I have to say anything with any competence about any of this because there is soooooooooooo much to learn!
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}