Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:29 am

Picking up something from the that warrants another pass:

retrofuturist wrote:For you to claim that idappaccayata was taught as a general principle, beyond that of dependent origination, you'll need to provide at least one example of it in the suttas that differs from dependent origination. Otherwise, you're merely kidding yourself that such an application of it is relevant to the Dhamma (given the criteria of the Simsapa Sutta).
No kidding myself. My point has to do with Right View. It is not a matter of being "beyond" paticcasamuppada. It is the principle that underlies it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:05 am

Greetings Tilt,

To be clear, you said this... viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=140#p125868

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.


later followed by...

tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

Since all (non-cessation) depictions of paticcasamuppada in the suttas are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the emphasis is surely upon you to find an example of idappaccayata which isn't, if you are to substantiate your view that there is some form of paticcasamuppada "not... conditioned by ignorance".

Otherwise your statement is an oxymoron.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

To be clear, you said this... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p125868

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.


later followed by...

tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

Since all (non-cessation) depictions of paticcasamuppada in the suttas are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the emphasis is surely upon you to find an example of idappaccayata which isn't, if you are to substantiate your view that there is some form of paticcasamuppada "not... conditioned by ignorance".

Otherwise your statement is an oxymoron.

Metta,
Retro. :)
The underlying structure of the Buddha's teachings is "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises. This not becoming, that does not become; from the ceasing of this, that ceases.
" [MN II 32]
"The Perfect One has told the cause of causally arisen things; and what brings their cessation, too."[Vin. Mv Kh1]

The basic formula is: "And what is X, what is the origin of X, what is the cessation of X, what is the way leading to the cessation of X?", and it applicable to each aspect of the 12 link formula.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:34 am

Greetings Tilt,

Yes - no arguments there...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:08 pm

Probably not adding much to this amazing discussion - my take on the matter is that when avijja samyojana is finally shattered by the arahanth, the 'process' which took up the path to enlightenment ceases to be. The unconditioned comes to manifest and all the aggregates cease. What starts up again is the remaining body, formed of 'old kamma'- a previous throw of the paticcasamuppada which has been crystallised as the ayatana, just continuing until the 'fuel' runs out. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:22 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Probably not adding much to this amazing discussion - my take on the matter is that when avijja samyojana is finally shattered by the arahanth, the 'process' which took up the path to enlightenment ceases to be. The unconditioned comes to manifest and all the aggregates cease. What starts up again is the remaining body, formed of 'old kamma'- a previous throw of the paticcasamuppada which has been crystallised as the ayatana, just continuing until the 'fuel' runs out. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha
So what remains is a bit of paticcasamuppada that remains functioning, but where is memory and personality?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:21 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.

Since all (non-cessation) depictions of paticcasamuppada in the suttas are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the emphasis is surely upon you to find an example of idappaccayata which isn't, if you are to substantiate your view that there is some form of paticcasamuppada "not... conditioned by ignorance".

Hi all,

what about this one?
Nalakalapiyo Sutta: Sheaves of Reeds SN 12.67
"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?"

"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:47 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Probably not adding much to this amazing discussion - my take on the matter is that when avijja samyojana is finally shattered by the arahanth, the 'process' which took up the path to enlightenment ceases to be. The unconditioned comes to manifest and all the aggregates cease. What starts up again is the remaining body, formed of 'old kamma'- a previous throw of the paticcasamuppada which has been crystallised as the ayatana, just continuing until the 'fuel' runs out. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha
So what remains is a bit of paticcasamuppada that remains functioning, but where is memory and personality?


Memory and personality arise as aggregates, but from another perspective form part of the brain tissue- ie the body. In anycase everything uptil that point the 'arahanth' was 'wiped out' belonged to the arahath continuum only because there was mistaken identification as such. When this ceased, experientially as well as in terms of designation, at the point of vimutti, what arose afterwards can't be said to 'belong' to anyone.

Even now there is only an aggregate in the process of becoming 'other', so all this continuum/arahanth talk is just talk, of course. But it does help to illustrate what is going on for those who need to hear something more than 'this is just the ending of suffering'.

Also, there is no supramundane language you would communicate to an arahanth in- we only have the same old conventional concepts, hence all the baggage of continuity, belonging, and self get used, to confuse us poor mortals even more.

I think it is a mistake to deny the external world. The Buddha said an external world cannot be said not to exist, as there is arising. (equally it can't, he said, be said to exist as there is passing away). So for a truly fulfilling, rounded doctrine (not that that is essential, but damn, these are the teachings of a fully enlightened Sammasambuddha), the external world must play a part- note kabalinkara ahara, right livelihood, samadhi, sati, jhana none are bogged down by talk of aggregates, but retain their vitality, where it is needed most. The Buddha was expert at mixing up conventional with ultimate, because his role was not to be as accurate as possible, but to be a the best teacher as was possible, to devas and men.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:43 pm

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:Nalakalapiyo Sutta: Sheaves of Reeds SN 12.67

There are many suttas in the Sutta Pitaka that focus on just a subset of the nidanas... this is one of them.

However, the challenge set to Tilt wasn't to find one which placed attention on components other than avijja and sankhara, but, since all formulations of dependent origination (and the nidanas therein) are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the challenge was to find a form of idappaccayata that did not relate to the nidanas at all, and was not based on avijja and sankharas.

Tilt has insisted previously that explanations for physiological functioning of the arahant's unconditioned existence are necessarily part of the Dhamma, however I don't know if he still feels that way. If he doesn't, the basis upon which the challenge arose, has ceased.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:03 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
However, the challenge set to Tilt wasn't to find one which placed attention on components other than avijja and sankhara, but, since all formulations of dependent origination (and the nidanas therein) are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the challenge was to find a form of idappaccayata that did not relate to the nidanas at all, and was not based on avijja and sankharas.
But the underlying noting of causality that inform paticcasamuppada is not dependent on ignorance, as has been plainly shown.

Tilt has insisted previously that explanations for physiological functioning of the arahant's unconditioned existence are necessarily part of the Dhamma, however I don't know if he still feels that way. If he doesn't, the basis upon which the challenge arose, has ceased.
Please do quote where I said that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:10 pm

Greetings Tilt,

retrofuturist wrote:Tilt has insisted previously that explanations for physiological functioning of the arahant's unconditioned existence are necessarily part of the Dhamma, however I don't know if he still feels that way. If he doesn't, the basis upon which the challenge arose, has ceased.
tiltbillings wrote:Please do quote where I said that.

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Plus all the times you have insisted people make statements about an arahant's memory, about their thoughts etc.

tiltbillings wrote:So what remains is a bit of paticcasamuppada that remains functioning, but where is memory and personality?

Both of those quotes are derived simply through looking through this page 18 of the discussion... I'm sure I could find more on earlier pages, but there is no need.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:29 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

retrofuturist wrote:Tilt has insisted previously that explanations for physiological functioning of the arahant's unconditioned existence are necessarily part of the Dhamma, however I don't know if he still feels that way. If he doesn't, the basis upon which the challenge arose, has ceased.
tiltbillings wrote:Please do quote where I said that.

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.

Plus all the times you have insisted people make statements about an arahant's memory, about their thoughts etc.
That is a bit of a distortion, given that I do not believe I ever said that memory is solely or is even a physiological function, but you have yet to account for the memory of the arahant, assuming that an arahant has a memory (according to you).

tiltbillings wrote:So what remains is a bit of paticcasamuppada that remains functioning, but where is memory and personality?

Both of those quotes are derived simply through looking through this page 18 of the discussion... I'm sure I could find more on earlier pages, but there is no need.
Have I said memory is solely physiological. It might be, but I do not believe I ever said that, and you have yet account for the arahant's memory or that an arahant even has a memory.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:35 pm

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:That is a bit of a distortion, given that I do not believe I ever said that memory is solely or is even a physiological function, but you have yet to account for the memory of the arahant

OK - I admit you may not have used the actual word physiological (I don't care to search 18 pages trawling for the word), but you are attempting to talk about something conditioned by something else other than avijja, and they seem to relate to what you would consistute to be the normal functioning of a human being.

I have told you repeatedly why I do not need to account for the memory of the arahant, Tilt. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Yet this expectation continues that people measure an arahant for you, like obstructed puthujjanas.

tiltbillings wrote:Have I said memory is solely physiological. It might be, but I do not believe I ever said that, and you have yet account for the arahant's memory or that an arahant even has a memory.


To repeat - I will not be accounting for an arahant's memory, because that would be speculative, beyond range, and not connected to dukkha and nirodha... so you may as well stop asking.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:49 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:That is a bit of a distortion, given that I do not believe I ever said that memory is solely or is even a physiological function, but you have yet to account for the memory of the arahant

OK - I admit you may not have used the actual word physiological (I don't care to search 18 pages trawling for the word), but you are attempting to talk about something conditioned by something else other than avijja, and they seem to relate to what you would consistute to be the normal functioning of a human being.

I have told you repeatedly why I do not need to account for the memory of the arahant, Tilt. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Yet this expectation continues that people measure an arahant for you, like obstructed puthujjanas.
Oh, goodness. No one is measuring the arahant, but you keep insisting that as a way of deflecting the conversation. The fact of the matter is that an arahant obviously has memory, has personality, has senses and sensory in-put, but we cannot say that because supposedly they are conditioned and the arahant is somehow unconditioned. Yep, and that has been carefully explained and accounted for without measuring the arahant in terms of the worldling.

tiltbillings wrote:Have I said memory is solely physiological. It might be, but I do not believe I ever said that, and you have yet account for the arahant's memory or that an arahant even has a memory.


To repeat - I will not be accounting for an arahant's memory, because that would be speculative, beyond range, and not connected to dukkha and nirodha... so you may as well stop asking.
I'll stop asking, because obviously you cannot answer the question, but the answer is fairly simple, as I have shown, and it does no violation to the Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:18 am

rowyourboat wrote:Probably not adding much to this amazing discussion - my take on the matter is that when avijja samyojana is finally shattered by the arahanth, the 'process' which took up the path to enlightenment ceases to be. The unconditioned comes to manifest and all the aggregates cease. What starts up again is the remaining body, formed of 'old kamma'- a previous throw of the paticcasamuppada which has been crystallised as the ayatana, just continuing until the 'fuel' runs out. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha


Hi Matheesha

Hmm, if the Aggregates cease for a living Arahant, why do you think the Buddha drew this distinction in SN 22.48 -

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate.

"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the feeling aggregate.

"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the perception aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: Those are called the fabrications aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the consciousness aggregate.

"These are called the five aggregates.

"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the form clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the feeling clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever perception — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the perception clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: Those are called the fabrications clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the consciousness clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."


I think there would be consensus in believing that those underlined qualities are gone in an Arahant, which suggests that the Arahant's experiences are just the khandhas simpliciter listed earlier.

I think what is more difficult in this debate here is whether or not the DO nidanas of salayatana-phassa, phassa-vedana, and phassa-sanna (per MN 109) continue to regulate a living Arahant's khandhas.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby chownah » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:48 am

I don't understand alot of the discussion here but I have one question which I hope is related to the topic....If something is done to an arahant's body is it done to the arahant?
chownah
chownah
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:59 am

chownah wrote:I don't understand alot of the discussion here but I have one question which I hope is related to the topic....If something is done to an arahant's body is it done to the arahant?
chownah
It is a wrongly put question, though not a bad one. It seems to assme something about the living arahant. The living arahant is not measured in terms of the body or the rest of the khandhas, so one cannot say that poking with a pointy stick a living arahant's body ("body" being the arahant's is figurative conventional speech) that one is poking an arahant. It is not to say that there would not be painful sensation as a result of being poked with a pointy stick. The arahant would have no identification with the pain. Might the arahant tell the poking person that poking another person woud not be a good idea, possibly.

Seeing a form
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
impassioned in mind,
one feels
and remains fastened there.
One's feelings, born of the form,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance
injure one's mind.
Thus amassing stress,
one is said to be far from Unbinding.

Hearing a sound...
Smelling an aroma...
Tasting a flavor...
Touching a tactile sensation...

Knowing an idea
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
impassioned in mind,
one feels
and remains fastened there.
One's feelings, born of the idea,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance
injure one's mind.
Thus amassing stress,
one is said to be far from Unbinding.

Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is seeing a form
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.

Not impassioned with sounds...
Not impassioned with aromas...
Not impassioned with flavors...
Not impassioned with tactile sensations...

Not impassioned with ideas
— knowing an idea with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is knowing an idea
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding. -- SN 35.95
The mind is not fastened to the body or to the sensations arising from the body or the thoughts arising from that. In that, there is no way to measure the arahant.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:20 pm

Sylvester wrote:Hi Matheesha

Hmm, if the Aggregates cease for a living Arahant, why do you think the Buddha drew this distinction in SN 22.48 -

......"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the consciousness clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."


I think there would be consensus in believing that those underlined qualities are gone in an Arahant, which suggests that the Arahant's experiences are just the khandhas simpliciter listed earlier.

I think what is more difficult in this debate here is whether or not the DO nidanas of salayatana-phassa, phassa-vedana, and phassa-sanna (per MN 109) continue to regulate a living Arahant's khandhas.


Hi Sylvester,

Yes, I am of the opinion that at the point of vimutti, for the unconditioned to 'manifest' the aggregates (conditioned) must cease. This is reflected in the various 'empty' experiences at the point of attainment of various meditative traditions (at least the ones that subscribe to this idea/experience). What is meant by cease is a sort of momentary non-arising (nirodha), rather than ceasing (vaya)- the latter which happens all the time. The continuity (false as it is) is thus broken. I believe this is what happens when the paticcanirodha manifests, at the culmination of all the vipassana nanas (vijja/yathabuhutha nana vs avijja).

We can speculate what the 'continuity' is but perhaps it is best characterized by what you have underlined in your quote- khandas which have been appropriated by the 'individual' as his or her own ('my continuity'), which are 'clingable' due to aasava. What arises after the complete cessation, is not clingable, because avijja-aasava does not exist any more.

What arises after vimutti cannot be said the be the arahanth's khandas because any such claims have been removed. But of course, on a more mundane level we can say the arahaths body and mind continues, minus the avijja.

Hope that makes sense,

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:38 pm

rowyourboat wrote: What arises after vimutti cannot be said the be the arahanth's khandas because any such claims have been removed. But of course, on a more mundane level we can say the arahaths body and mind continues, minus the avijja.
A rose by any other name . . . .
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19306
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:Nalakalapiyo Sutta: Sheaves of Reeds SN 12.67

There are many suttas in the Sutta Pitaka that focus on just a subset of the nidanas... this is one of them.
However, the challenge set to Tilt wasn't to find one which placed attention on components other than avijja and sankhara, but, since all formulations of dependent origination (and the nidanas therein) are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the challenge was to find a form of idappaccayata that did not relate to the nidanas at all, and was not based on avijja and sankharas.

Maybe I should open a new topic about that. As I understand that sutta this fomulation of dependent origination does not seem to depend on avijja and sankhārā.
In short the formula presented looks like this:

nāma-rūpa <-> viññāna <-> nāma-rūpa -> āyatana -> phassa -> vedanā -> tanhā -> upādāna -> bhava -> jāti -> jarā-marana

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests