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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering? - Page 19 - Dhamma Wheel

Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dan74
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:50 pm

I am sorry if this is a stupid question, but I thought this was Buddhism 101. Please correct me if I am wrong:

Khandas, ie the aggregates of "form", "sensation", "cognition", "volition" and "consciousness" are what we, sentient beings take as self-existent or essentially real and then identify with them and are deluded by this identification. An arahant knows khandas to be dependently arisen, non self-existent and has ceased to identify with them. But this doesn't make them stop functioning. Of course they don't function in the same way as before - they are not tainted by ignorance and grasping but of course an arahant is still embodied, senses, cognizes, is moved to do this or that and is aware.

So the khandas are not of themselves a defilement but are a vehicle for defilement if one approaches them as self-existent and identifies with them, right?

I tried to understand what the dispute here is about but as many such it seems to me to be about semantics. Khandas means different things to different people, it seems, especially when it comes to arahants...
_/|\_

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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:03 pm


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Dan74
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:21 pm

Thanks!

So an arahant is beyond cause and effect? :shrug: This is getting weirder than Mahayana! :spy:

There can certainly be a lot of talk invested in exploring how khandas function in one who is unbound, but they would function, wouldn't they? The blood flows, the senses perceive and the mind cognizes what is perceived. Unless not only the mind but the physical form too is kammically unbound and one is not only freed from ignorance in the sense of grasping onto the sense of personal self, but of all so-called hindrances and obscuration, ie of a body bound by the laws of kamma and dependent origination, of time, of locality, etc etc.

I've read materials that could support this but is there something like this in Theravada?? (Ok, I recall some Thai monks apparently being able to be in different places at the same time, so something's gone awry with locality there... :thinking: )

Otherwise all that can be said (it seems) is that just because an arahant does not make the error of reifying and identifying with the khandas, doesn't mean it is not useful to denote certain "heaps" of functions as "form", "sensation", etc...

But maybe it is not useful to speculate about arahants...?
_/|\_

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:04 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:07 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:07 pm


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Adrien
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Adrien » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:28 pm

Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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kirk5a
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:45 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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ground
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby ground » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:48 pm


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Adrien
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Adrien » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:48 pm

Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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kirk5a
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:39 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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beeblebrox
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Do you regard the Tathagata [or an arahant] as elsewhere than form, feeling, perception, fabrications or consciousness? No.

Do you regard the Tathagata [or an arahant] as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness? No.

Source:

:anjali:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:00 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:21 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:06 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:35 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby ground » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:42 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:01 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby ground » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:05 am

Hi retro

that is interesting but it does not alter my preference for his phrasing.

Kind regards

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:07 am

Greetings TMinguyr,

No worries... it just helps to know the underlying reasons, beliefs, views etc. underlying someone's translations.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation notes to SN 12.15 give further indication of his views regarding existence.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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