Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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rowyourboat
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by rowyourboat »

Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Conventional: that monk the arahath
Ultimate: the khandas,devoid of upadana
..The aggregate scheme is mere designation (paññattimatta). The aggregates are not to be taken as "the ultimately existent given." With the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion the mind is measureless (appamāṇacetasa). There is no criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) which can be used as a reference point to define a measureless cognition.

All the best,

Geoff
Thanks Goeff,

I do no consider aggregates as ultimately existing- even they dissolve once avijja dissolves. 'Ultimate' (paramatta) is perhaps (or should I say,is) an unfortunate choice of terms suggesting a higher truth/existence, but not reflecting that they are in themselves conditionally arisen and insubstantial.

Appamanacetassa is an interesting term. It suggests some special quality of the mind of the arahanth, experientially speaking. But nevertheless it is mind and formed of aggregates, speaking on ultimate, conditioned terms. We make a mistake if we think that whatever that can be named as something other than nibbana (ie appamanacatassa) is unconditioned. Only nibbana is unconditioned. While nibbana cannot be defined, perhaps the 'measureless' or 'unlimited' mind cannot be measured and delimited. Since I am not an arahanth and dont have an experience of this mind the last sentence is mere speculation. I am averse to stating viewpoints without any basis in experience as this simply leads to clinging, defending, retorts, accusations, and general wrong speech, much akusla and set backs in my practice. Are you aware of the defilements that arise as we discuss these lofty issues?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:We make a mistake if we think that whatever that can be named as something other than nibbana (ie appamanacatassa) is unconditioned.
Who's suggesting that any mind is unconditioned?
rowyourboat wrote:Are you aware of the defilements that arise as we discuss these lofty issues?
Yep. When defilements arise I'm aware of them. I'm also not adverse to calling a spade a spade. Sometimes it helps clear the air.

All the best,

Geoff
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by acinteyyo »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:nāma-rūpa <-> viññāna <-> nāma-rūpa -> āyatana -> phassa -> vedanā -> tanhā -> upādāna -> bhava -> jāti -> jarā-marana
Sure, but you know what viññāna (and thus anything dependending upon viññāna) is dependent upon don't you?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, according to this sutta viññāna depends on nāma-rūpa. But I think what you suggest is avijja and sankhārā as in the usual 12 link formulation of DO.
There's another sutta (MN38) which describes the conditions upon viññāna arises dependently are the āyatana.
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.
This is why I opened another topic. I'm not quite sure how this is to be understood correctly.
I know that "something which depends on something" is a sankhāra, because it's an sankhatā dhamma. So since viññāna depends on nāma-rūpa and nāma-rūpa depends on viññāna, they're both sankhatā dhammā, so one could also say instead of going back to nāma-rūpa from viññāna that it all depends on sankhārā, which finally depends on avijja. But I'm in doubt about that... Is this how it could be understood?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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rowyourboat
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by rowyourboat »

Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Are you aware of the defilements that arise as we discuss these lofty issues?
Yep. When defilements arise I'm aware of them. I'm also not adverse to calling a spade a spade. Sometimes it helps clear the air.

All the best,

Geoff
I must confess I'm not in the habit of doing this. Often the Buddha is in the habit of calling people 'you fool', but I worry that if I did it it would me simply airing my defilements, just to make myself feel better at the perceived insult/attack on my beliefs/self. How do you navigate this?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Conventional: that monk the arahath
Ultimate: the khandas,devoid of upadana
..The aggregate scheme is mere designation (paññattimatta). The aggregates are not to be taken as "the ultimately existent given." With the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion the mind is measureless (appamāṇacetasa). There is no criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) which can be used as a reference point to define a measureless cognition.

All the best,

Geoff
Thanks Goeff,

I do no consider aggregates as ultimately existing- even they dissolve once avijja dissolves. 'Ultimate' (paramatta) is perhaps (or should I say,is) an unfortunate choice of terms suggesting a higher truth/existence, but not reflecting that they are in themselves conditionally arisen and insubstantial.
Interestingly, the khandhas are mere designations whether the individual is awakened or not. While the khandhas are how the the unawakened person measure themselves, that does not mean that the functions that we call the khandhas are absent in the arahant. With the living arahant, however, there is no identification with the khandhas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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ground
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TMingyur,

How could someone "cling", "crave", "be attached", "grasp" to that which they did not believe existed, or had the potential to exist?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi retro

through an indefinite habit (similar to a reflex) not necessarily involving conceptually believing in existence.

Kind regards
rowyourboat
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by rowyourboat »

Tilt: Interestingly, the khandhas are mere designations whether the individual is awakened or not. While the khandhas are how the the unawakened person measure themselves, that does not mean that the functions that we call the khandhas are absent in the arahant. With the living arahant, however, there is no identification with the khandhas.
If you look at the 'unconditioned' entry in my post on different ways of describing moments when khandas are absent in the arahanth. I would add nirodhasamapatti to it as well. Clearly to have an unconditioned experience, you cannot have skandas arising. It would have to take place when there is non arising of skandas, which are of course, conditioned. But I agree, for all other times, there are skandas which arise, but not identified as self by the arahath.

Also, for nibbana with fuel remaining, and parinibbana the ceasing of skandas in the latter is important to the ending of sankhara dukkha as well.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by beeblebrox »

tiltbillings wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Source: SN 22.85
Actually, this sutta neatly makes my point about the living arahant and her or his relationship to the khandhas. For the living arahant, there are still khandhas, but the arahant cannot be measured by them, since the arahant, no longer clinging to the the khandhas, is no longer identified, established, in them, seeing the khandhas' true nature, thusly freed of their grasping nature.

Thanks.
No problem, Tilt. I had it in my mind for a while, but wasn't sure if it was appropriate for the topic. There's also something else that I found interesting in this sutta. After the Ven. Sariputta was done making an analogy about the khandhas being murderous, Ven. Yamaka gave the following response:
Even so, my friend Sariputta, are those who have people like you [i.e., not murderous] as their fellows in the holy life, teaching them, admonishing them out of sympathy, desiring their welfare. For now that I have heard this explanation of the Dhamma from you, my mind — through lack of clinging/sustenance — has been released from the effluents.
Seems to imply something about an arahant's relationship to the khandhas... not sure how it reads in Pāli, or if my interpretation is correct.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:How do you navigate this?
With care and introspection. Of course, being blunt should be the exception, not the rule. It should go without saying that it's generally far more appropriate to remain genteel or opt for silence.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What about the Sutta I quoted where vedana was experienced?
Sekhas and putthujjanas experience vedana, and it was a sutta to those in training, not those who had completed it.
I think this is wrong. Take a look at Dhātuvibhanga-sutta (MN 140) where the Buddha describes how one attains nibbāna and then after that how one experiences different kind of feelings (§22-24) — essentially it's the same as in Sallatha-sutta (SN 36.6). Therefore it seems that it's not a sutta about puthujjana and sekha, but about puthujjana and arahant.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:I know that "something which depends on something" is a sankhāra, because it's an sankhatā dhamma. So since viññāna depends on nāma-rūpa and nāma-rūpa depends on viññāna, they're both sankhatā dhammā, so one could also say instead of going back to nāma-rūpa from viññāna that it all depends on sankhārā, which finally depends on avijja. But I'm in doubt about that... Is this how it could be understood?
I would say so.

As someone pointed out in the other topic, that aspect is just not the specific focus of that individual teaching. Just because part of the Dhamma is not included in any one particular Dhamma talk or sutta, does not make it false. If everything was in a single sutta, that's all we'd need.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Piotr for pointing out that passage:
piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What about the Sutta I quoted where vedana was experienced?
Sekhas and putthujjanas experience vedana, and it was a sutta to those in training, not those who had completed it.
I think this is wrong. Take a look at Dhātuvibhanga-sutta (MN 140) where the Buddha describes how one attains nibbāna and then after that how one experiences different kind of feelings (§22-24) — essentially it's the same as in Sallatha-sutta (SN 36.6). Therefore it seems that it's not a sutta about puthujjana and sekha, but about puthujjana and arahant.
Here is the relevant part:
MN 140 wrote:24. “If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

25. “Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this wisdom] possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the destruction of all suffering.
:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:Therefore it seems that it's not a sutta about puthujjana and sekha, but about puthujjana and arahant.
Thanks for the clarification.

In terms of dependent origination in its cessation mode, it brings also forward potentially the importance on us understanding whether avijja is temporal (like moha) or structural, and whether avijja is binary or not. I do not have a clear view on this at this point in time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist
retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.
Could you write more about it?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Sylvester »

piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist
retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.
Could you write more about it?

Oh ho ho! The never-ending dry-insight debate.

Does anyone have BB's paper “The Susīma-sutta and the Wisdom-Liberated Arahant” in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, published 2007? Judging from the breadth of Ajahn Brahmali's reply to that paper, I suspect BB brought out all the big guns to justify this concept by referring to only the Suttas.
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