To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

[clw_uk]

Greetings


I have seen this on another Forum and thought it would be interesting to have a discussion here


Must one accept or have confidence in Kamma and also Rebirth in order to be a buddhist or to practice the buddhist teachings correctly

Would not accepting kamma and rebirth break a part of the Noble Eightfold Path on Right View and so stop one from reaching nibbana


Feel its an important discussion since kamma and rebirth come up a lot in the modern times so i think it would be good to know if not having a conviction in these two teachings actualy stops one from awakening


In reguards to my own answer i answered not sure, i used to think no at least in reguards to rebirth but now im not really sure. Ive just come to the understanding that one shouldnt advert from rebirth nor delight in it either since this is craving and so dukkha




P.S. If you could all state what you voted for so that it can be a good discussion, many thanks


Metta

[Fede]

I voted no.
You don't have to accept anything in Buddhism, not without your own investigation, research and questioning.
And even then (particularly on the subject of re-birth) even if you remain unsure, it's ok to remain unsure.
As it's something the Buddha specifically taught, I personally would never flat-out deny it, and one, strictly speaking, should not....
But neither would I admantly assert that all should accept it, either.

[clw_uk]

I voted no.
You don't have to accept anything in Buddhism, not without your own investigation, research and questioning.
And even then (particularly on the subject of re-birth) even if you remain unsure, it's ok to remain unsure.
As it's something the Buddha specifically taught, I personally would never flat-out deny it, and one, strictly speaking, should not....
But neither would I admantly assert that all should accept it, either.

True but Buddhism isnt all about our own investigation, research and questioning, there is also a strong element of Saddha involved, since without it one wouldnt begin the path and one wouldnt begin to investigate and research etc


to play Devils Advocate

Birth
24. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation, generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

27. "When a noble disciple has thus understood birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

And

"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Couldnt it be said we should take these on Saddha?


Metta

[Ben]

One does not arrive at the truth by participating in a vote.
If you want to arrive at the truth regarding whether rebirth and kamma, then you will need to match ongoing study with bhavana (practice) and the truth will be revealed as you slowly acquire insight into the nature of nama and rupa.

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Kamma is not a matter of faith, it is something to be be investigated and understood.

An extract from AN 6.63 - Nibbedhika Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#part-5

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said."

As for rebirth, the Buddha did not command belief and he knew there was no "logical proof" he could provide for the phenomenon... rather he showed the consequences that could arise from a lack of belief in some form of post-mortem continuation.

An extract from MN 60 - Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

A. "There are some brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves.'1

B. "Some brahmans & contemplatives, speaking in direct opposition to those brahmans & contemplatives, say this: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

"What do you think, householders? Don't these brahmans & contemplatives speak in direct opposition to each other?"

"Yes, lord."

A1. "Now, householders, of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities — good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable brahmans & contemplatives do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

A3. "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is no next world, then — at the break-up of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of bad habits & wrong view: 2 one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the wise here-&-now, and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.

B1. "Now, householders, of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three unskillful activities — bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three skillful activities: good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable brahmans & contemplatives see in unskillful activities the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; and in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

B2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is a next world,' that is his right resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is a next world,' that is his right speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is a next world,' he doesn't make himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is a next world,' that is persuasion in what is true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is true Dhamma, he doesn't exalt himself or disparage others. Whatever bad habituation he previously had is abandoned, while good habituation is manifested. And this right view, right resolve, right speech, non-opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is true Dhamma, non-exaltation of self, & non-disparagement of others: These many skillful activities come into play, in dependence on right view.

B3. "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the wise here-&-now; and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.

Metta,
Retro.

[clw_uk]

Greetings

One does not arrive at the truth by participating in a vote.
If you want to arrive at the truth regarding whether rebirth and kamma, then you will need to match ongoing study with bhavana (practice) and the truth will be revealed as you slowly acquire insight into the nature of nama and rupa.

Ben

Your correct one doesnt arrive at truth via vote, i think you misunderstood what this topic is about, im not asking the validity of such things but their importance to the path. So does one handicap oneself by not believing in kamma and rebirth?

One has to have right Saddha at begining in order to follow the path to enlightenment, in order to take the right route, so does one have to believe in kamma and rebirth in order to correctly follow the path or not?

As for rebirth, the Buddha did not command belief and he knew there was no "logical proof" he could provide for the phenomenon... rather he showed the consequences that could arise from a lack of belief in some form of post-mortem continuation.

So taking the sutta and your answer into account is that to mean that if one disbelieves rebirth then one doesnt have right view and so wont reach nibbana so in order to be a Buddhist you have to accept kamma and rebirth?

[Peter]

I think the key to the OP's question has nothing to do with rebirth but rather with what we mean by the word "Buddhist".

You don't have to accept anything in Buddhism, not without your own investigation, research and questioning.

I disagree. Buddha invites non-Buddhists to investigate and question and when as a result of investigation and questioning one develops confidence in the Buddha then one is a Buddhist, one who strives to learn and develop the Buddha's path.

But neither would I admantly assert that all should accept it, either.

I would not assert that all people should accept it. Then again, I would assert that those people who do not yet accept it are not yet Buddhists.

A Buddhist is one who goes for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The Buddha taught rebirth, the Dhamma includes rebirth as part of Right View, the Sangha includes those who have known and seen rebirth for themselves. When one denies rebirth then what does that say of their refuge?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Craig,

So taking the sutta and your answer into account is that to mean that if one disbelieves rebirth then one doesnt have right view and so wont reach nibbana so in order to be a Buddhist you have to accept kamma and rebirth?

I don't think it's as hard'n'fast as that.

I think that if you know and understand kamma, like the Buddha suggested, then you become aware that the results of actions are experienced both now and in the future. If you were to assume there is no rebirth then in terms of calculating and determining the proper action to take here-and-now, you wipe out a portion of that "in the future" (particularly if you're already in the latter stages of life) and the cost-benefit analysis associated with different options changes.

That results in a skewed decision-making process, and it's that decision-making, which (if the Buddha is correct) is going to be distorted and be sub-optimal, if there is no belief that the effects of actions will be felt in the post-mortem future.... leading in turn to certain undesirable consequences here-and-now, and in the future.

Metta,
Retro.

[pink_trike]

To the best of my recollection, in all the years that I've practiced and studied the Dharma, none of my teachers have ever mentioned what must be accepted in order to "be" a Buddhist. I got the impression that the desire to "be" a Buddhist was a distraction.

[Peter]

I got the impression that the desire to "be" a Buddhist was a distraction.

I agree.

I get the feeling people are only concerned with notions of "being Buddhist" because they were once Christians who could be kicked out of their church. There's no "kicking out" in Buddhism.

[cooran]

Hello clw_uk, all,

I don't think one has to "accept" kamma and rebirth to be a follower of the Buddha.

But I think one has to "not deny" that kamma and rebirth were taught as part of Right View by the Buddha.

If a person has difficulty "accepting" kamma and rebirth, they ought to simply set it aside for this time, and study and practice the Dhamma further.

After a while, there is nothing to be accepted or denied ~ one comes "to know".

metta
Chris

[jcsuperstar]

all you need to do to be a buddhist is take refuge in the 3 gems.

the 2nd of which is the dhamma, now i would say literal rebirth seems to be a subject people might not want to think the buddha taught, so just to be liberal i'll throw that out and say you dont have to accept it. but kamma is a whole other thing, i dont think you can have buddhism without kamma. i think many people may not understand kamma and have a hindu/new age/my name is earl view of it but the buddhist definition is a bit different and to throw out the buddha's teaching on volilitional thought would basicly throw out a lot of dhamma, you'd basicly be left with some talks on basic ethics i guess, and if that was all buddhism was you really wouldnt even need it so why even be a buddhist? just cause you like the statues?

[retrofuturist]

Well said JC.



Metta,
Retro.

[clw_uk]

Greetings all

I have been giving this some thought and here are my conclusions, please tell me what you think


I think one has to accept Kamma to be a buddhist, this i feel is without question

As to rebirth this is more difficult. In reguards to rebirth that occurs every moment through the birth and death of self or "I am" i feel this must be accepted and investigated. As to post mortem rebirth i havent come to a definite conclusion on if its needed or not. My assumption at the moment is leaning towards yes but this is only an assumption, not something i take as an absolute


The main point i think is important however is the question that if one denies post mortem rebirth, does this break Right View as part of the Noble Eightfold Path? If this can be answered sufficiently then i think we will come to the answer to the question "must a buddhist accept Kamma and Rebirth" since if disbelieving breaks the Noble Eightfold Path then it will cut one off from awakening

A general discussion on Wrong and Right Views is as follows

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Right View is found here in more detail, which as we know is about four noble truths, unwholesome and wholesome, birth, death, becoming, sickness etc etc

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html (its to long to copy)

Its also worth a note that Kamma needs to be understood well, if one states there is no rebirth at all then they state that kamma can only play out in one exsistence, however the Buddha states

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

He also states in another Sutta that to say Kamma plays out in one life is "the prattle of fools"

So i think its important to find out if rebirth view when accepted is of benefit or not, or visa versa for rebirth denile and how it effects understanding of Kamma. Which one is right view and which one is wrong view?


Answer that and you will know if one needs to accept kamma and rebirth in order to successfully practice Buddhadhamma

Its interesting to note that in the quote i provided and many others that rebirth view is always classed as right view but rebirth denial is always classed as wrong view


Metta

[Cittasanto]

I didn't think ther was a must accept aspect to Dhamma, rather a Must know for yourself!

[Tex]

I suppose one could call oneself a "student of physics" while not believing in gravity, but I don't know how much progress s/he would make.

If you take gravity out of the study of physics a lot of the rest of physics falls apart.

It is the same with kamma and rebirth with regards to Buddhism, as far as I can see. Pull out a few bricks you don't like and the whole wall falls apart.

Regarding taking refuge in the Dhamma -- I don't know how one could truly take refuge in something that one believed incomplete or erroneous in certain places. I'm not trying to be judgmental, and as Cooran noted it's surely okay to be agnostic on some things and put them aside for the moment -- but I can't imagine really, truly taking refuge in any set of teachings if one rejects some of those teachings. What would be the point? It might be a bit like calling myself a Christian because I like a lot of the brotherly love teachings but I don't quite believe in the whole virgin birth and resurrection crap.

[Ben]

Regarding taking refuge in the Dhamma -- I don't know how one could truly take refuge in something that one believed incomplete or erroneous in certain places. I'm not trying to be judgmental, and as Cooran noted it's surely okay to be agnostic on some things and put them aside for the moment -- but I can't imagine really, truly taking refuge in any set of teachings if one rejects some of those teachings. What would be the point? It might be a bit like calling myself a Christian because I like a lot of the brotherly love teachings but I don't quite believe in the whole virgin birth and resurrection crap.

Nicely said, Tex!
Its not for small reason that saddha was described in the Abhidhamma as Indriya (faculty) and bala (power). The profound role of saddha within the Dhamma is not well understood.
Metta

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

You don't even need to go to Abhidhamma for that!

MN 77
http://www.vipassana.info/077-mahasakuludayi-e1.htm

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Indeed Retro
I know the Indriyas and Balas are mentioned in the suttas, as Nyanaponika Thera points out, but I was unsure where.
Kind regards

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

They're listed plenty of times in the Samyutta Nikaya but MN77 is the long rambling version.

Metta,
Retro.