Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: free will?

Post by daverupa »

The point of repurposing "kamma" from Hindu meanings to Dhammic ones is to show both that choices can be made, and which choices are wholesome and unwholesome, i.e. germane to the Path.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

middle path between determinism and choice

Post by befriend »

hey everyone,
what does buddha say about some actions being involuntary and some actions being totally free will. for example, ive noticed that if i get angry and there is a pencil in my hand, i dont realize ive broken the pencil until i notice it snapped in two in my hand. meaning there is no pause in between the intetion to brake the pencil and the actual act of breaking the pencil. there is no room to make a choice.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: middle path between determinism and choice

Post by daverupa »

befriend wrote:there is no room to make a choice.
Sure there is, you simply need stronger mindfulness to experience it. Practice, practice, practice!

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: middle path between determinism and choice

Post by cooran »

Hello befriend, all,

This article and these previous threads may be of interest:

Journal of Buddhist Ethics / Annual, 2007
"Freedom of the Will" in the light of Theravada Buddhist teachings

Abstract
A well known issue in Western Philosophy is that of "freedom of the will": whether, how and in what sense human beings have genuine freedom of action in the context of a broad range of external and internal conditioning factors. Any system of ethics also assumes that humans have, in some sense, a freedom to choose between different courses of action. Buddhist ethics is no different in this--but how is freedom of action to be made sense of in a system that sees human beings as an interacting cluster of conditioned and conditioning processes, with no substantial I-agent either within or beyond this cluster? This article explores this issue within Theravada Buddhism, and concludes that the view of this tradition on the issue is a "compatibilist" middle way between seeing a person's actions as completely rigidly determined, and seeing them as totally and unconditionally free, with a variety of factors acting to bring, and increase, the element of freedom that humans have. In a different way, if a person is wrongly seen as an essential, permanent Self, it is an "undetermined question" as to whether "a person's acts of will are determined" or "a person's acts of will are free." If there is no essential person-entity, "it" can not be said to be either determined or free.
read article ....
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7 ... n28513265/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Freewill, is it an illusion?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Free will?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=8105" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:44 am

Re: middle path between determinism and choice

Post by Nibbida »

User avatar
phil
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: middle path between determinism and choice

Post by phil »

I always find it interesting that when I'm soaking in a hot tub before bedtime as is the custom here I never get out after thinking ok, enough of this nodding off, time to get out, the getting out always happens suddenly, involuntarily. May have no meaning, may have important meaning about how intentions (conventionally understood) condition actions...

But for me there is rarely free will about andandoning the sensory pleasure of the hot bath on a cold winter's eve, may apply to clinging to sense pleasures in general, in some way...
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
perkele
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by perkele »

Hello!
In the Dhamma there are some deterministic statements.
For example, someone who attains stream-entry is ascertained to attain Nibbana within seven lifetimes.
That is a statement which I don't doubt very much. It makes sense to me that someone who has experienced "the taste" of Nibbana and sees the path clearly will never stray from it again.
Then there are the actions with immediate result: killing one's father or mother, killing an arahat or wounding a Buddha. A person who carries out such acts is said to be destined to a long time in hell after his current life. I know to some extent from my own experience that evil actions carried out with evil intentions have a devastating and debilitating effect on the mind which is unimaginable to any reasonably sane person who would abhor from such things. So I also don't doubt this very much.
But then there are some more prophetic statements that I found somewhere but not in the suttas. For example that Ajatasattu and Devadatta are destined to become Pacceka-Buddhas. Or that king Pasenadi is a bodhisatta. What do you make of such particular statements of certain persons' destiny in the future?
Sorry if this is a stupid question. Maybe it is close to the imponderables and totally useless. It just makes me curious.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by Alex123 »

perkele wrote:Hello!
In the Dhamma there are some deterministic statements.
For example, someone who attains stream-entry is ascertained to attain Nibbana within seven lifetimes.
Аssured Awakening is great news. Free-will doesn't make sense, isn't part of the Dhamma, contradicts conditionality (paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā) and anatta.

Either phenomenon happen due to causes, or it happens not due to causes (uncaused). There is no third option, law of excluded middle, no third possibility (tertium non datur) .In either case there is no freedom of will. In one case it is causes that produce certain effect, in another case effects just arise.

Lets take this scenario:
A ball is on the table. If you tilt a table in a certain direction, the ball will roll down it. Does it have any "say" in whether it remains still or where it moves? No, force acting on it causes it to move or remain still. It would be strange if ball could suddenly roll up the slope or randomly somewhere. What would be cause of that? Is it caused or uncaused?

With beings it is same principle, just much more complex. Countless factors that occur now, and before, input from inside/outside, interactions of conditions, conditionality happening too fast or decisions done below normal awareness (my question in hearing while sleeping thread), etc. Of course people believe in Self so much, that they want to believe to somehow be immune from conditions. But even choices done without any causes, is random, and not free will. At least with determinism we can hope that good causes will bring good effects and thus is worthwhile to do.

As I was discussing, in another topic: some of our decisions can be done below the threshold of conscious awareness... So decision to act, can occur almost subconsciously. Where is control there?

If we say "I willed this". Did this intention appear due to causes or without causes? In either way, no control.
squarepeg
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:58 am

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by squarepeg »

As I was discussing, in another topic: some of our decisions can be done below the threshold of conscious awareness... So decision to act, can occur almost subconsciously. Where is control there?
there might not be (complete) control. but surly your not denying the fact that we have will in our decisions. I.E. Ill decide to study dhamma. it might not be compleatly free and i aggree it seams to be subject to a multitude of conditions, but there is something, possibly the illusion of something, pushing it in this direction or another.
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by Alex123 »

squarepeg wrote: there might not be (complete) control. but surly your not denying the fact that we have will in our decisions.
Will is. There are good and bad decisions. But this is all fully conditioned and not done by any Self (atta).
squarepeg wrote: I.E. Ill decide to study dhamma. it might not be compleatly free and i aggree it seams to be subject to a multitude of conditions,
And what are the causes for studying Dhamma and not something else? Can you really make oneself believe in some spaghetti monster on the Moon made of cheese? Why not? No causes for it. Can one quickly make a really fanatical Christian indoctrinated since childhood, teen and adult years to believe in Dhamma? Not anytime soon. Their upbringing, people around them, and delusion is the decisive cause.
squarepeg wrote: but there is something, possibly the illusion of something, pushing it in this direction or another.
A Self, a controller pushing thoughts out and intending this or that?

Here is an experiment. Sit in comfortable position and try to control the mind. Tell it "don't think any thoughts for 5 minutes". Please tell me how it goes. If we can't control even one thought, then how can we control any decision making? It all happens due to impersonal cause-effect conditionality.

The other possible option is that decision/intention/thoughts are uncaused. But even this rejects free will. Phenomena would just appear randomly without any cause at all (hence uncaused).
squarepeg
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:58 am

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by squarepeg »

i tried to stop thinking for five minutes, it went something like this "have i stoped thinking?" "I did it! im not thinking!" "wait im thinking... ok starting... NOW!" haha, i do how ever have tha ablility to hold my breath untill i pass out and stop thinking, wouldnt this be some sort of free will
:thinking:
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
User avatar
Fede
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: The Heart of this "Green & Pleasant Land"...
Contact:

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by Fede »

Alex123 wrote: Here is an experiment. Sit in comfortable position and try to control the mind. Tell it "don't think any thoughts for 5 minutes". Please tell me how it goes. If we can't control even one thought, then how can we control any decision making? It all happens due to impersonal cause-effect conditionality.
No....

you're not trying to control one thought. you're trying to control non-thought.
and that is not the point of any form of meditation I have ever come across.The object in meditation is to still the mind and observe the thoughts - to be Mind-FUL.

Decision-making is thought, focussed.

You clear the mind of other factors, not pertaining to this decision, and focus on the different permutations, possibilities and possible consequences.... but while you are trying to think whether you should turn left - or right - at the junction, you will not also be considering whether you took the pasta dish out of the freezer....
The cause-effect is highly personalised conditionality.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by Alex123 »

Fede wrote: you're not trying to control one thought. you're trying to control non-thought. and that is not the point of any form of meditation I have ever come across.
I just gave the above as an example. Of course it is not Buddhist meditation which is to develop wisdom (paññā) that will uproot kilesas, rather than trying to numb oneself down to a worm stage.

A thought (or any phenomenon) arises either due to causes or arises un-caused*. Either way there is no Freedom Of Will. Neither determinism nor randomness allows Freedom Of Will.

*according to Dhamma thoughts are caused, but I include it for the sake of completeness of options.

Another interesting thing. Before a thought arose, did you think (Hmm... I didn't think about this XYZ thought. Maybe I should will it to occur). And before these thoughts, did you think about that... ?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by Alex123 »

squarepeg wrote:i tried to stop thinking for five minutes, it went something like this "have i stoped thinking?" "I did it! im not thinking!" "wait im thinking...
There you go. You can't unless you pass out, get drugged up, die, or some other extreme case in which THAT would be a condition for not-thinking at that period of time. And neither can I. One helpful thing for this experiment (it is not Buddhist meditation) is that you can set alarm clock for 5 or 6 minutes and start thinking only when it buzzes.

squarepeg wrote: i do how ever have tha ablility to hold my breath untill i pass out and stop thinking, wouldnt this be some sort of free will
:thinking:
Can you will yourself to think when you are passed out unconscious? Is the person with totally broken legs in full control of walking?
squarepeg
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:58 am

Re: determinism, prophecies and myths

Post by squarepeg »

Can you will yourself to think when you are passed out unconscious? Is the person with totally broken legs in full control of walking?
No. Soo..
If my goal was to not walk, i would have to manipulate the conditions i have currently.(using my legs, arms, mind exc.) against the conditions for walking(picking up a sledge hammer) by removing them.(by breaking my legs)

I obviously have alot of studying to do :smile:
Thank you for your effort

with metta,
sp
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
Post Reply