"But just thinking isn't kilesas ..."?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

"But just thinking isn't kilesas ..."?

Postby starter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:44 am

Hello Teachers/Friends,

I just read the following:

"But just thinking isn't kilesas -- when we grasp at it, that's kilesas."

-- Would mental restlessness be counted as a hindrance/kilesa? If we only consider grasping at thinkings but not mental fabrications as kilesas, can we actually reach the "stilling of the fabrications"?

Metta to all,

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Re: "But just thinking isn't kilesas ..."?

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:47 am

Hello starter,

This might be a beginning:

Kilesa (defilements — passion (lobha), aversion (dosa), and delusion (moha) — in their various forms). See also Anger; Asava; Avijja (ignorance); Nivarana (hindrances).
Suttas:
As a source of harm and suffering in the world: SN 3.23
As putrefaction: AN 3.126
As stains/enemies/murderers/etc.: Iti 88
Abandonment of ~ as a guarantee of non-return: Iti 1-8
~ form the root of unskillful action: Iti 50
~ burn like fire: Iti 93
~ are like dirty stains on an otherwise clean cloth: MN 7
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... tml#kilesa

Kilesa: 'defilements', are mind-defiling, disadvantageous qualities. Vis.M XXII, 49, 65: There are 10 defilements, thus called because they are themselves defiled, and because they defile the mental properties associated with them.
They are: 1 greed lobha 2 hate dosa 3 confusion moha 4 conceit māna 5 speculative views ditthi 6 skeptical doubt vicikicchā 7 mental Laziness thīna 8 restlessness uddhacca 9 shamelessness ahirika 10 lack of Fear of Wrongdoing or unconscientiousness anottappa For 1-3, see: mūla 4, s. māna 5, see: ditthi 6-8, s. nīvarana 9 and 10, see: ahirika-anottappa
The ten are explained in Dhs. 1229f and enumerated in Vibh. XII. No classification of the k. is found in the Suttas, though the term occurs quite often in them. For the related term, upakkilesa, 'impurities' different lists are given - App..
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_k.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: "But just thinking isn't kilesas ..."?

Postby starter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:28 pm

Hello Chris,

Again your resourcefulness is very much appreciated.

"No classification of the k. is found in the Suttas, though the term occurs quite often in them."
-- I thought the kilesas are the 10 fetters, with thinking probably belonging to restlessness/agitation".

Thanks and metta,

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Re: "But just thinking isn't kilesas ..."?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:59 pm

Sabba-sankhara samatha-the stilling of all fabrications, is another term for nibbana. It refers to the complete cessation of the aggregates (sankhara here taken to mean everything that arises and passes away).

It can only be arrived at by the complete removal (or suppression) of avijja. See the patina-nirodha sequence that is one of the knowledges of a stream entrant.

Sankhara, has been popularly/recently been used to refer to defilements, i.e. those arising from lobha and dosa (craving and aversion). At that level, samadhi development methods alone are adequate for the job (or to put it in another way, that by definition is development of samadhi).

Hope that makes sense. Sankhara is a complex word.

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