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To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Yes
36
58%
No
20
32%
Not Sure
6
10%
 
Total votes: 62

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mikenz66
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:11 am


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:15 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Tex
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Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Tex » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:59 am

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:29 am

I was speaking of a more general "many of those who" ...not about you. Sorry :geek: writing isn't my native language...

To answer your question...

When I say "unknowns" I'm referring to concepts that are unknowable to us with our minds conditoned as they are. When I say "us" I'm referring to ordinary people, not those with vision attainments. Ordinary people don't have the clarity to know their own literal rebirths, or to know if such a phenomenon is doubtless with certainty. In the absence of the wisdom necessary to see with that clarity, faith can only masquerade as "knowing" - whether that faith be innocent, devotional, taught, or intellectualized. imo
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Ben
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:35 am

Hi Pink

I think there is something qualitatively different to the Dhammic concept of saddha than the concept that we have inherited through our judeo-christian cultures as 'faith'. In fact, I think it is a totally different beast. Within the Dhamma, one is encouraged to 'know for oneself', and the saddha that develops, develops as a result of insight and knowledge, however miniscule and mundane, manifesting as a result of engaging with practice. So when we take refuge, we take refuge with an element of faith that has as its base, wisdom. Ledi Sayadaw wrote in the back pages of Uttamapurisa Dipani (A manual of the excellent man) on How to Practice the Three Refuges and describes the two different types of refuges characterised by blind faith or direct knowledge.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:29 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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sukhamanveti
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Location: U.S.A.

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:11 am

Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:38 am

Greetings


Wanted to add something in reguards to Saddha. I feel its something overlooked and only the empirical side of Buddhism is stressed the the modern times.

Saddha is very important since its that which gets you started on the path. Saddha or Trust (or faith) that these teachings are true (since we dont know them with insight at begining) Saddha that the Buddha knows what he is talking about. Saddha that the practice set forth leads somewhere. Saddha that these things can be realized and known.

Even if when one first reads the four noble truths and thinks "ah that makes perfect sense" there is still Saddha there that they are true since one doesnt know for oneself (yet)

As i said i think in our times people get caught up in the empirical side of Buddhism (if i cant verify it then i shouldnt believe it) thinking that Saddha is a small thing (if needed at all) even though it is embedded in most of the practice (however subtly)


Saddha sets one off and also supports along the way until Saddha is turned into truth via insight


Thats my take anyway


Metta

:anjali:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Rui Sousa
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Rui Sousa » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:39 pm

With Metta

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:24 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:47 pm

- Peter


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:56 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

thecap
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby thecap » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:58 pm

Last edited by thecap on Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:03 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:03 pm

Greetings


Just wanted to make an observation

On the Zen forum (where i got the idea for this topic) their votes are 50/50 but here there is a majority in favour of accepting

This seems to signifie a slight difference across the schools in term of doctrine (and practice?)


Metta
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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clw_uk
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:04 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:10 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:00 pm

Last edited by pink_trike on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:21 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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sukhamanveti
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Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:33 pm
Location: U.S.A.

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:57 pm

Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5


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