The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

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Cittasanto
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Cittasanto »

puthujjana wrote: :arrow: "Every Sperm is Sacred": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
just what I was thinking when I heard the article!
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Cittasanto »

Mawkish1983 wrote:All good points, but what about 'Religion making people stupid'? Do you REALLY think that's the case? :s

Correlation is not causation.
I don't think the OP is about religion making people stupid.
I think religion can in the wrong hands make people do stupid things, but people would do stupid things even if religion wasn't involved.

it takes a stupid mad to corrupt something good but a genius to follow him"
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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pink_trike
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by pink_trike »

The irrationality inherent to religion becomes internalized, conditioning the mind toward stupid and often dangerous irrationality outside the domain of religion. Its the rare mind that is capable of containing religion's patterns of irrationality within the boundaries of religion.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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sukhamanveti
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by sukhamanveti »

Mawkish1983 wrote:All good points, but what about 'Religion making people stupid'? Do you REALLY think that's the case? :s

Correlation is not causation.
Hi Mawkish,

I think that a certain approach to religion can cause even intelligent people to think and act in ways that contradict overwhelming evidence. For example, in my country evangelical and fundamentalist Christians forced sex education classes out of schools and had them replaced with "abstinence-only education." Whenever this is reported on by the American news media studies* are cited showing that abstinence education in schools does not prevent teen pregnancy and can lead to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Evangelical Christians simply refuse to accept this any more than they accept the discoveries of Charles Darwin. I think that many other examples of this sort of blindness can be found, at least in the United States.

It is in this sense that I think it could be said that "religion makes people stupid."


* See for example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01003.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/135002.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , etc.
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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pink_trike
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by pink_trike »

sukhamanveti wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:All good points, but what about 'Religion making people stupid'? Do you REALLY think that's the case? :s

Correlation is not causation.
Hi Mawkish,

I think that a certain approach to religion can cause even intelligent people to think and act in ways that contradict overwhelming evidence. For example, in my country evangelical and fundamentalist Christians forced sex education classes out of schools and had them replaced with "abstinence-only education." Whenever this is reported on by the American news media studies* are cited showing that abstinence education in schools does not prevent teen pregnancy and can lead to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Evangelical Christians simply refuse to accept this any more than they accept the discoveries of Charles Darwin. I think that many other examples of this sort of blindness can be found, at least in the United States.

It is in this sense that I think it could be said that "religion makes people stupid."


* See for example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01003.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/135002.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , etc.
Agreed. Another example is those people who fervently believe, based on saddhu, that the earth is around 4k years old or some rubbish like that, even as contemporary sciences now place the earliest known evidence of human civilization at around 90,000 b.c. using conservative, rigorous scientific methods and accepted standards by which to define "civilization". Nothing can get past that armor of faith. This type of saddhu can even go beyond stupidity into psychosis.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Mawkish1983 »

pink_trike wrote:This type of saddhu can even go beyond stupidity into psychosis.
The only thing I take issue with is calling these people with this sort of blind faith 'stupid'. Maybe if they had been born in Burma they would have become blindly faithful to the Buddhist teachings... what then? Are they 'stupid' or naive? 'Stupid' where I come from is a derogatory word... calling someone else 'stupid' sort of implies that we believe we are better than them. That, in my opinion' does NOT encourage the development of karuna or metta or even equinimity.

Also, do you think religion is the cause of this naive blind faith? If it was, why isn't EVERYONE under its spell? Maybe some people are more inclined to believe more freely than others... in which case is religion the cause?
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

When individuals talk about the womb being a weapon, deliberately bringing children into the world, in order to impose their point of view upon others, as these people clearly claim is their goal, then I have no problem with referring to them as stupid. While they may not be flying airplanes into skyscrapers or strapping bombs unto their bodies in order to influence the behavior of others, they are bringing human beings into the world in order to wage a cultural/religious war upon others. On any number of levels it is wrong and it is stupid. Would you like me spell it out further why increasing the world population in this manner is a problem?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mawkish
Also, do you think religion is the cause of this naive blind faith? If it was, why isn't EVERYONE under its spell? Maybe some people are more inclined to believe more freely than others... in which case is religion the cause?
Religion isnt the cause, ignorance is



"Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

"The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'...

"...'the cosmos is finite'...

"...'the cosmos is infinite'...

"...'the soul & the body are the same'...

"...'the soul is one thing and the body another'...

"...'after death a Tathagata exists'...

"...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'...

"...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'...

"...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'... does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding."


"Does Master Gotama have any speculative view at all?"

"A speculative view,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And
"Thus, monks, when those ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists proclaim the eternity of the self and the world in four ways, that is merely the feeling of those who do not know and see, the worry and vacillation of those immersed in craving" (the same for annihilationists, nihilism etc) - Digha Nikaya - What the teaching is not (sutta)
Another wanderer said, "The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



All views and opinions and blind faiths arise because of the taints and ignorance which are
Ignorance
64. Saying, "Good friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

65. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

66. "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

Taints
68. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

69. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

70. "And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

71. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
Another good quote
"Concerning the various views that arise in the world, householder (soul, eternal world, non eternal etc)when self-identity view is present, these views come into being; when self-identity view is absent, they don't come into being.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#views" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So because of the taints and ignorance people will assume they have self. Because of that the mind will begin to fabricate ideas and views based on that ignorance (so souls, heaven in sky etc) which leads to an arising of a consciousness embeded with such concepts, which then conditions name-form (so their perceptions etc alter to see the world in such a way i.e. seeing Gods hand in saving people etc) and so on through D.O. onto dukkha

When people have these speculative views, born from ignorance and the taints, this is how religions get founded and then other people who share the same or similar speculative views start to pack togerther and so over time you have organised religion, which then re-inforces the taints and ignorance (and of course craving) of those who believe it (and maybe those exposed to it who dont know truth?) and so dukkha which can lead to people acting like the people in this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcqhPTdI ... -fresh+div" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When one understands ignorance, its cause and how to get rid of it there are no views, blind faith or standpoints there is just knowing of the truth of dukkha and how it ends (so in reguards to views, how they came to be and how to end them)


Thats my take anyway

Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Mawkish1983
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Mawkish1983 »

clw_uk wrote:Religion isnt the cause, ignorance is
This I can agree with. Amen (as a large family I've heard of would say :) )
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fig tree
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by fig tree »

Mawkish1983 wrote:All good points, but what about 'Religion making people stupid'?
I would focus not on just having lots of kids (plenty of people enjoy that in spite of the practical difficulties) or even on this idea that it will tend to strengthen their hand in the "culture wars" (which it might do, as unhelpful as that might be, although not I think as well as they expect), or on a specific number of kids (like raising 7 on a certain income), but on the idea that if they are on the verge of having more than they can take good care of, God will prevent that from actually happening by "closing the womb". They've reached this implausible conclusion and religion has led them to it. I'm reluctant to use the word "stupid" but there's a certain lack of good sense there. I can appreciate people having trust in someone (like the Buddha) who assures them that a certain kind of moral conduct will result in benefits later, but "have as many children as you can" seems like such an implausible choice.

I don't know these specific people obviously, but I've known people who talked in a similar way. Real-world examples where I would say that this kind of blind faith hasn't worked out for people would be interpreted as the burdened parents' not being sufficiently faithful. Perhaps God wants them to humble themselves by accepting material poverty, or test their faith in Him, or perhaps (if living in a third-world country) they are not as prosperous as we Americans because they're not sufficiently Christian, and so on. To the people I knew, it wasn't a matter of their plan for doing God's bidding seeming to work out well enough; to them, thinking that the soundness of the choice might be best tested by looking at the consequences just wasn't faithful enough.

I really haven't known any non-religious people to make the same mistake. They might engage in wishful thinking that has a similar effect, but not to the extent of thinking that a certain course of action is sure not to create harm, regardless of how far it's taken, because mystery forces will prevent it.

One could argue that arriving at such a conclusion is the result of some independent lack of good sense. Plenty of theists avoid the same mistake. There's a joke that used to be popular. A town is flooded and as flood waters rise one potential victim refuses help from various quarters, saying, "God will provide". So he dies and arrives in heaven. He asks, "Why didn't you help?" St. Peter says, "we sent a car, a boat, and a helicopter...". It seemed to me to be an attempt to satirize the unfortunate conclusions that one might reach by assuming that everything that happens is managed by a deity. One doesn't have to conclude that God's plan is for you to "leave it up to him" in a simple-minded way.

It doesn't seem to me, though, that a prior lack of sense is what decides whether people fall into such views. One reason why I'm reluctant to use terms like "stupid" is that a lot of people like this don't seem to be lacking in what one might call "raw brain power". I think what matters more is whether one has a desire for the sense of security that comes from not having to worry about such "details". Then there's this sort of pseudo-epiphany one has, where one "realizes" that there's no real problem. But as I said, I don't see irreligious people falling into the same trap, nor does it seem that this particular issue leads people to take up religion. So I think this type of religion is partly to blame for selling them on the idea, basically for telling them what they wanted to hear.

Fig Tree
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

Given the increasingly negative ecological impact of unfettered population growth there also is the seriously questionable morality of deliberately increasing the human population whatever the motivation, but when one has one's all-powerful god on one's side as a justification, consequences be damned.

From the Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19:

"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqE ... ct=6831061" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Rui Sousa
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Rui Sousa »

In deed, never-ending... :(
With Metta
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tiltbillings
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by tiltbillings »

A bit frightening:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106115324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The never-ending capacity of religion making people stupid

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:A bit frightening:

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/med ... =106117287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is an error with the vid, what was the general gist of it?


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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