Ditthi Sutta

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Ditthi Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:39 pm

Greetings

Found an interesting sutta on views here

Another wanderer said, "The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)


This sounds like he is talking about D.O., that being so i thought fabrications in D.O. (classical teaching) refers to kamma making. How does bringing a view into being also equate with Kamma?

Is it through ignorance they fabricate a view and so create kamma through that or am i getting it totaly wrong?


Metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: Ditthi Sutta

Postby phil » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:04 am

clw_uk wrote:Greetings

Found an interesting sutta on views here

Another wanderer said, "The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)


This sounds like he is talking about D.O., that being so i thought fabrications in D.O. (classical teaching) refers to kamma making. How does bringing a view into being also equate with Kamma?

Is it through ignorance they fabricate a view and so create kamma through that or am i getting it totaly wrong?


Metta


Hi Craig

This looks like a very difficult sutta, it would be best if you could provide a link to the whole sutta.

I don't know very much about this difficult topic, but I think the answer to your first question is something to do with the many meanings of sankhara, which is translated here as fabrications. Sankhara in D.O refers to kamma, as you say, but sankhara here refers to the fact that all dhammas except nibbana are sankhara (conditioned, dependently originated etc.)

As for your second question, I have no idea. Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable members could step in. Also to clarify if I am wrong about the above.

Metta,

Phil
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
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Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Ditthi Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Greetings

Sorry i thought i did post link, here it is

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(its a good sutta)

My current understanding is that because of ignorance, people will think they have a self so then they will Fabricate ideas based on that, so eg eternal soul or annihilated self etc

What is being said here is that all these views are fabricated from ignorance and so a cause of dukkha etc


Metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: Ditthi Sutta

Postby phil » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:59 pm

clw_uk wrote:Greetings

Sorry i thought i did post link, here it is

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(its a good sutta)

My current understanding is that because of ignorance, people will think they have a self so then they will Fabricate ideas based on that, so eg eternal soul or annihilated self etc

What is being said here is that all these views are fabricated from ignorance and so a cause of dukkha etc


Metta


Hi Craig

Yeah it's very good. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I think I shy away from D.O because it feels way over my head and there is a tendency to try to reduce it to an-easy-to-understand formula. I think the Buddha says that "he who sees D.O sees the Dhamma"or something like that, so I think it is very deep so I tend to shy away. (Not because I think we should, it just happens that way for me for some reason.) But you may be right that it is about D.O in the way you describe. For me there is a similar interpretation, the Venerable is reminding them that no matter what views one has about the world, eternalism, the soul etc it can all be reduced to dhammas that are anicca, dukkha, anatta and subject to conditions, fabricated in that sense. It feels like "stop all your metphysical ponderings, householders and get down to the nitty gritty" to me. So yes, about ignorance conditioning views. I think I tend to think more in terms of the 24 (?) conditional relations, the "paccayas" that lay out the way dhammas condition each other than in terms of the links of D.O but that might change.

What do others think about this sutta?

BTW, you know there's that thread where you posted many sutta passages, maybe like 10 separate short passages? In "personal experience" I think. They are also missing links. May I suggest you pull a few and post them with their own threads? It looks like they are deep like this one and bear a closer look but the way they are posted now makes it difficult to work with them.

Metta,

Phil
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Ditthi Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:41 pm

BTW, you know there's that thread where you posted many sutta passages, maybe like 10 separate short passages? In "personal experience" I think. They are also missing links. May I suggest you pull a few and post them with their own threads? It looks like they are deep like this one and bear a closer look but the way they are posted now makes it difficult to work with them.



Oh yes thank you for reminding me, i did mean to put the links on but when i did something went wrong, will sort it out now

I have started some threads with two of them, will do some more soon, they are very deep but i find very insightful. They tell a lot in just a few short passages


Metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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