Understanding the fourth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Annapurna
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Re: Are white lies acceptable?

Post by Annapurna »

Stefan wrote:Thank you Peter.

But is it possible to avoid the unwholesome completely in these situations?
Hi, Stefan,

I would say so, if one is very skillful, and I think that comes with practice.

Just think about the 5 factors, and then carefully weigh your words, as PeterB said. You don't need to rush them.
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
Many truths, blurted out without reflection are not beneficial or spoken at the right time.

As Goedert days, you don't have an obligation to reply.

In tips for skillful conversation the Buddha explains:
"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, puts down [the questioner], crushes him, ridicules him, grasps at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with. But if a person, when asked a question, doesn't put down [the questioner], doesn't crush him, doesn't ridicule him, doesn't grasp at his little mistakes, then — that being the case — he is a person fit to talk with.
So, if a wife asks, before a party, if her butt isn't a bit too pompous in that white dress, ....telling her: "Yes", will crush her, will be grasping at a 'little mistake'.

If however the wise husband says:

"Hey, I think the black dress is flattering your curves a lot more than this one"

then he has

spoken at the right time (when she asks for reassurance)
in truth,
beneficially, (because she will look better + go to the party in good spirits)
affectionately, (knowing his compliment will help her overcome her insecurity)
and with good will (he doesn't want to burden her with her own inadequacies before a party, but also wants to help her find something more flattering)

This is just an example, of course, and others may be more difficult to answer, like trying to avert misfortune from someone.

In the case of a Nazi officer, asking if you are hiding a Jewish person, this could apply:
"Monks, it's through his way of participating in a discussion that a person can be known as fit to talk with or unfit to talk with. If a person, when asked a question, doesn't give a categorical answer to a question deserving a categorical answer, doesn't give an analytical (qualified) answer to a question deserving an analytical answer, doesn't give a counter-question to a question deserving a counter-question, doesn't put aside a question deserving to be put aside, then — that being the case — he is a person unfit to talk with.
Hope my reply was useful....

Anna :anjali:
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Goedert
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Re: Are white lies acceptable?

Post by Goedert »

Maybe it a misunderstanding.

The last reply mean, that in a case that you have to tell a lie to protect something, or enever the case that truth is not plesant, the silence is acceptable, silence say many things.

Did not want to produce wrog speech. Maybe it was toopor, not typing in the keyboard the whole statement.
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Annapurna
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Re: Are white lies acceptable?

Post by Annapurna »

I understood you and I agree with you, Goedert, silence is acceptable. :smile:
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torqz
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Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by torqz »

Deleted post.
Last edited by torqz on Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pedro,

I'm a little confused by your explanation... was there any intent to speak/write a falsehood? Any attempt to deceive?

If not, I would not regard this is a breach of the precepts.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by daverupa »

The Gestapo hypothetical I'm going to set aside as it's been discussed elsewhere at great depth.

As to your personal scenario, there appears to have been no intention to lie; your intent was to be as precise as possible. Being inaccurate due to lack of information is not the same as intending to prevaricate or misdirect.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Jason
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Jason »

PeDr0 wrote:I understand the Buddha said that under no circumstances was it ever skillful to tell a lie.

But what if the Gestapo come knocking on your door and you have a family of Jews living in your basement?

I have just had an interesting end to my day at work. I work as a care worker with people with (Supposed) learning difficulties. (To coin a phrase).

I Just took a phone-call from the residents adopted mother (at least I think she is adopted, that is what I seem to remember) I said to the resident, "Your Mum called" or words to that effect. I also wrote a note in the communication book that said "A****'s Mum phoned, and she said she will call back in the morning" or words to that effect.

After pondering on it for some time next to where I had written Mum I wrote ('Mrs F**** I think if my memory serves me correctly) or similar. But seeing as she is adopted (or at least I think she is) I have broken one of the precepts right? I guess legally speaking she is her mother, but then again the law is an ass on many occasions is it not? Perhaps I should just call her by her first name in future...

But if you have told a lie is it necessary to un-tell it? If it is then I am going to be pretty busy. :-)
Interesting questions. I don't know if it's ever OK to lie, but I do think it can be easier to deal with certain situations by lying than not. The question is, how much effort do we want to put into observing the fourth precept? At times, I've put forth a lot, but others, not so much. Looking back, though, I don't think I've ever really had a good reason to lie when I did as much as I simply found it to be more expedient. And since becoming interested in Buddhism, I've found myself lying less and immediately correcting myself when I do catch myself telling a fib or exaggerating the truth.

That said, the Buddha seems to take the position that lying is never really 'OK.' Thanissaro Bhikkhu, for example, notes that throughout the 550 birth stories contained in the Jakata, the precept against lying is the only precept the Buddha doesn't break. Moreover, the Buddha appears to hold truthfulness in pretty high regard (see examples of his words on truthfulness here).

Personally, I tend to agree with Aristotle that lying isn't legitimate unless overridden by some higher virtue, such as the lying to save someone's life (which is probably a position more in line with Mahayana than Theravada). In most circumstances, if I'm forced into a position where I have to either lie or watch someone die because I tell the truth, I'm going to lie my ass off. The only issue I have with the Gestapo scenario, however, is that it (like most hypotheticals of this nature) seems to be based on the assumption that lying is the only way to protect a family of Jews hiding in your basement.

For example, one could preemptively befriend local Nazis, having a few drinks with them or whatnot, so that they wouldn't even be suspected of harbouring Jews in the first place. Or, if confronted unexpectedly, one could simply invite them in (assuming the people were fairly well hidden), offer them a drink and say, "Have a look if you want." It'd be the equivalent of saying "I've got nothing to hide" without actually having to lie.

Either way, there's not much one could do to prevent them from searching one's home if that's what they had in mind to do; although they probably wouldn't look as hard if they didn't feel suspicious. And having an open and friendly attitude would probably help. But, like I said, I'd have no qualms about lying in this situation if I had to or couldn't think of anything better.

As for rest, I agree with daverupa that, "As to your personal scenario, there appears to have been no intention to lie; your intent was to be as precise as possible. Being inaccurate due to lack of information is not the same as intending to prevaricate or misdirect." Mistakes and misunderstandings ≠ lies. Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with trying to correct your past indiscretions, but it's my opinion that you don't need to correct every lie you've ever told as long as you make a serious effort to renounce lying and do your best to cultivate the truth in the future, e.g., in AN 10.176, the Buddha says:
  • And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.
Note that he doesn't say you have to go back and "un-tell" each and every lie you told in the past.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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rowyourboat
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by rowyourboat »

I agree with the above posts- but it is important to note that if you do lie intentionally (say, for a higher cause) then you are hopefully doing so and accepting the karmic repercussions of that act as well (which seems likely to be mitigated, in such a circumstance. There are no prohibitions in Buddhism. There are however wise choices when it comes to your thought, speech and actions, with particular consequences as a result, that you must be prepared to live with.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by ground »

PeDr0 wrote:I understand the Buddha said that under no circumstances was it ever skillful to tell a lie.

But what if the Gestapo come knocking on your door and you have a family of Jews living in your basement?
Such kinds of questions touch ethics/silas in general, not only lying but e.g. also killing.
I would not recommend to even start questioning any of the silas.

Generally breaking one of the silas depends on the intention to do so.

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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by alan »

Depends on who is asking the questions.
Responding to a leading question with an honest answer that might hurt people is fundamentally different from the outright deception we associate with "lying."
It's all about intention.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by torqz »

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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by nameless »

I don't think the mom issue is considered a lie because all parties concerned know who "mom" refers to, regardless of the accuracy of the term. This is in contrast to for example, if mom didn't call and you said she did.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by Jhana4 »

PeDr0 wrote:I understand the Buddha said that under no circumstances was it ever skillful to tell a lie.

But what if the Gestapo come knocking on your door and you have a family of Jews living in your basement?
See Godwin's Law :)

What does "okay" mean?

- in compliance with the wishes of a god who has the power to know you are lying and to punish you?
- not hurtful to yourself?
- not hurtful to someone else?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by manas »

I see the mind as my 'life's work'. What it's condition will be like by the end of my life, that's the single most important thing. Dhamma practice brightens it, little by little; unwholesome actions darken it, even just by a little.

I can recall a place in the suttas where the Buddha says that one should see Virtue as an 'ornament' for the mind. In that sense, telling a deliberate lie, unless for some urgent life-threatening reason, is always going to have a 'net' negative effect, even if no-one (else) is harmed in any way by our lie. Yes, no-one was harmed by our little 'white lie', but our own mind saw it! And so, it would be contaminating.

And no, I'm not perfect, either! So I'm not trying to sound preachy. I intuit that most of us could find some improvement we could make in the area of samma vaca. (?).


Regarding 'not wishing to hurt someone's feelings', let's look at an example from my own past. I was with my (now) ex at the time. She had just bought a new dress, but I did not know this. So when she asked me what I thought of it, I just stupidly blurted out the first thing that came into my mind - that I did not think so much of it. (Her response was less than pleased!). Now if I had been a bit more aware, I could have just said 'it's alright' or 'yes, it's fine' instead, and side-stepped the issue of whether I 'liked' it or not. Because, truthfully, it is fine - all functional clothing is 'fine' so long as it does it's job - and I would have kept the precept, but without hurting her feelings in the process. (Anyway, we live and learn!)

As for the question, 'does my butt look big in this?', that would take a whole new level of skill to negotiate...I guess we could say "well, 'big' is a relative term"...but that's not going to go down well either, I feel... :thinking:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Is it ever O.K. to lie?

Post by cooran »

Being mindful, helps. This prevents blurting out responses which are unskilful.

If you are hiding someone to save their lives, you would have already thought about various scenarios. If the Gestapo come to your door, you can smile and say ‘Come in! Cold day isn’t it? Can I get you a warm drink?’
You didn’t say what question they asked, but a skilful answer (in this case, one prepared beforehand) can sometimes remove the need for a direct lie.

If someone asks ‘What do you think of my new dress’ – even if you don’t particularly think it suits them, if you know bluntness will hurt their feelings, you can easily say ‘I love the colour’, or ‘what material is it?’, or ‘who is the designer?’, etc.

Right Speech from His Own Lips
http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/rtspch1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Right Speech – Samma Vaca
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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