The Buddha's path to liberation

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The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby starter » Wed May 04, 2011 9:28 pm

Hello teachers/friends,

After seeing some wrong view/speech/conduct/samadhi of some practitioners, I've realized that only doing meditation and contemplations of 5 aggregates / dependent origination (DO) / 3 characteristics is not enough to eliminate the unwholesome habits/underline tendencies and wrong understandings etc. The foundation of our practice should be built upon Noble 8-factored Path (N8P). Without a solid foundation of N8P, it's impossible to really reach nibbana. Therefore, I'd like to share with you my understanding of the Buddha's path and would appreciate your comments/advice, as always.

My understanding of the Buddha's path:

Learn the true dhamma/reflective acceptance of the Dhamma (the Buddha's teaching) while having admirable teachers/friends:
→ Right View of the law of karma to start [b]the mundane 8-factored path[/b] that is aimed at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 path factors and the understanding of 4 Noble Truths → Sense of fear and shame → Faith in the Buddha and HIS teaching, become faith followers and enter the path* to stream entry (*the gradual training as outline in MN 27)
→ Apply Right attention/reflection/consideration (striving for yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Right Resolve/Thinking [1) striving for and culminating intention/thoughts of non-unrighteous greed/non-covetousness (not covet for material or immaterial gain that is other's or not entitled to oneself, practice dana and caga), non-ill will, non-wrong view (of the law of karma; 2) striving for intention/thoughts of non-bodily and then non-mental sensual desire*, non-hatred/non-malevonance, non-cruelty/non-harming; [*see "Right way to cultivate samma sankappa?" viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12604&p=268923#p268923]
→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping, and better also striving for no hurried and untimely speech, and no extolling or disparaging ... -- no unwholesome/unbeneficial speech] ]
→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual (and other) misconduct]
→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming, wholesome livelihood]
→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings and use it to establish the other seven path factors; strive for sense restraint, remain vigilant/wakeful (for obstructive mental states), and restrain the five hindrances]
→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/the Dhamma) by starting from mindfulness of breathing & mindfulness/full awareness and right/clear comprehension; practice Satipatthana MN 10]
→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi; "Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors" MN 117]

→ Investigate/contemplate Dhammas:
→ True knowledge/ñāṇa: know/see things as they truly are -- the 5 aggregates/6 sense objects are all anicca/dukkha/anatta (gain the "the Dhamma eye", comprehend the 4NT), gain Noble Right View of the 4 Noble Truths (the first 4 of the 12 folds), break the three fetters (self identity view, doubt about the Buddha and the Dhamma, and grasping sila and observances/rituals as way to liberation), gain unshakable Faith, enter the Noble 8-factored path (the "stream") that is aimed at the perfection of the 8 factors and nibbana, and apply Right attention/reflection/consideration (culmination of yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Noble Right Resolve/Thinking [culmination of the resolve and thoughts for non-sensuality, non-malevonance (hate, hostility, anger, ...), non-harming]
→ Noble Right Speech [culmination of no un-wholesome/un-beneficial speech]
→ Noble Right Conduct [culmination of no killing / stealing /sexual (and other) misconduct]
→ Noble Right Livelihood [culmination of wholesome, beneficial livelihood and contentment]
→ Noble Right Effort [culmination of four exertions/strivings, and use it to culminate the other 7 path factors; suppression of the five hindrances]
→ Noble Right Mindfulness [culmination of the 4 mindfulness]
→ Noble Right Samādhi [the 4 jhanas]

The links (7 enlightenment factors) between Right Mindfulness and Nibbana:
→ Right Mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/the Dhamma) [satisambojjhaṅga]
→ Investigation of body, or feeling, or mind, or the dhamma as presented to the investigating mind by mindfulness [dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga]
→ Ardency/Energetic Effort to remove 5 hindrances (viriya) (to be ardent on keeping the mind on the meditation object) [viriyasambojjhaṅga]
→ Overcoming of the five hindrances → Joy(pāmojja)
→ Rapture [pītisambojjhaṅga]
→ Tranquility [passaddhisambojjhaṅga] → pleasure (sukha)
→ Right Samādhi (the 4 jhanas, equipped with the seven preceding right factors) [samādhisambojjhaṅga]
→ Upekkha (mental/psychological/emotional neutrality)
→ Investigation/contemplation of Dhammas, via direct experience (not by reasoning, imaging, ....
Right insight knowledge for liberation: (sammā-ñāṇa) true knowledge (comprehension of the four noble truths in three ways and twelve folds & cessation of ignorance)
-- Nibbana

Your input would be appreciated. My gratitude and metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 04, 2011 11:22 pm

Greetings Starter,

I agree with the necessity of the Noble Eightfold Path - no meditation technique alone is a substitute for the Buddha's path, as detailed in the suttas.

The insight meditations and contemplations you detail are valuable, if they lead to right knowledge. It's getting to that Right Knowledge which is the challenge, because once you really know how all things are, the subsequent dispassion and release would be a natural consequence of this knowledge. Therefore, don't lose faith in them... just test them until you can see how they actually lead to knowledge of all formations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Thu May 05, 2011 11:04 pm

In view of the below sutta, see if your structure is compatible:



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Tipitaka Anguttara Nikaya Tens
AN 10.7PTS: A v 8
Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2011
Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

With metta

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby starter » Fri May 06, 2011 2:48 pm

rowyourboat wrote:In view of the below sutta, see if your structure is compatible:

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"


Hello Matheesha,

Many thanks for the sutta. Interesting to note that Ven. Sariputta was still percipient of the cessation of becoming in the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling, not being unconscious. To my understanding of DO, the cessation of becoming is the result of the cessation of craving/clinging -- the cessation of assavas (greed/hatred/delusion), not the cessation of awareness, and nibbana is the result of the cessation of becoming -- "the stilling of all formations", sabba-saṅkhāra-samatha, first refers to the stilling of the kamma producing volitional formations (desires/cravings) during this very life, which will end the future rebirth, and consequently, the complete stilling/cessation of all conditioned phenomena (sankhara) at the death of the arahant. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks to Retro for the helpful comment as well. Indeed meditation alone is not sufficient for nibbana.

Metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Fri May 06, 2011 3:42 pm

No I would retreact my earlier position that lack of consciousness was a requirement for nibbana, but still maintain that there cannot be arising and passing away in nibbana- that there is a nibbana 'dhathu' which can be perceived as blackness or an emptiness, especially in the phala states, which seems to be a mix of samatha and vipassana, as Ven Nananda claims. Controlled removal of the consciousness that perceived nibbana is not impossible either, as those few verses that describe anidassana vinnana suggests. All degrees on 'extinguishment' can be called nibbana (which is one meaning of it) including further ceasing refinements in jhana.

So whereabouts in your practice are you? Morality, honesty, generosity, kindness, metta, renunciation, kind speech, reducing ones defilements are all part of the practice.

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby LastLegend » Sun May 08, 2011 8:04 am

The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.
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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Mon May 09, 2011 11:18 am

LastLegend wrote:The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.


Hi Lastlegend,

I believe you are right. For a fuller description of (supramundane) right view:

"Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby starter » Mon May 09, 2011 5:06 pm

LastLegend wrote:The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.


-- Only a hindrance-free mind can recognize the truth and hence obtain the right view. Please see the discussions on this thread if interested:
The first noble knowledge – how to realize the truth [http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6025]

Metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby LastLegend » Tue May 10, 2011 5:20 am

Thank you starter.

I believe practice is wholesome in that we try our best to chop off attachments (such as lust, wealth, fame, eating, sleeping for examples) so that the mind has less hindrance in order to achieve concentration through meditation. By following Dhamma (true teachings of Buddha), will have true or right view because Buddha's teachings are Truth. But to have right views on our own, we have to reach Arahant until then we have to rely on Buddha's teachings.
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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby starter » Tue May 10, 2011 10:57 pm

LastLegend wrote:Thank you starter.

I believe practice is wholesome in that we try our best to chop off attachments (such as lust, wealth, fame, eating, sleeping for examples) so that the mind has less hindrance in order to achieve concentration through meditation. By following Dhamma (true teachings of Buddha), will have true or right view because Buddha's teachings are Truth. But to have right views on our own, we have to reach Arahant until then we have to rely on Buddha's teachings.


Hm ... I tend to think that the Buddha's teachings are the pointers to the truth. We've to figure out "the pointed (the "moon") by ourselves. The Buddha taught us to examine even his teachings before accepting them (MN 95). This is especially necessary now considering how the teachings have been transmitted and translated over so many years ...

By the way, since MN 95 is mentioned, I'd like to review the following teachings together with our friends:

"... There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."

"But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth."

Metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby starter » Fri May 20, 2011 7:45 pm

Hm... interesting to note that the Buddha's path consists of the following numbers:

37 -- Aids to enlightenment
12 -- DO
10 -- 10 courses of skillful action
8 -- N8P
7 -- 7 enlightenment factors
6 -- 6 sense sets (the All); restrain 6 senses
5 -- 5 precepts; 5 aggregates; overcoming 5 hindrances; 5 faculties
4 -- 4NT; 4 exertions; 4 mindfulness;
3 -- 3 resolves (non-greed / non-aversion / non-delusion]; 3 characteristics (anicca/dukkha/anatta]; triangle [plus -- gratification / minus -- danger / escape -- release];
2 -- tranquility and insight
1 -- the unconditioned, nibbana, with residue
0 -- 0 residue; nibbana

Welcome to add more. Thanks and metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby starter » Mon May 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Interesting to learn from Ven. Bodhi's lecture based on his book "In the Buddha's Words" (http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html, 10c) that "unshakable faith" is actually a commentary translation. The real meaning of the pali terms (?) is "confirmed confidence", the reflective acceptance of and trust in the Buddha's teachings, one of the four factors of the stream entry. How come that the commentary interpreted the terms into "unshakable faith"? I suppose "confirmed confidence" is not really 100% unshakable.

Metta to all,

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Re: The Buddha's path: from right view to nibbana

Postby daverupa » Tue May 24, 2011 1:27 am

starter wrote: I suppose "confirmed confidence" is not really 100% unshakable.


Confidence, then confirmed in one's practice. That's unshakeable.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby starter » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:16 pm

A related topic: The place of dana and caga in the path & its development (http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=14220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
The Buddha’s path comprises a gradual process of emptying “self”. It starts with giving away one's external possessions (dana). Only when the generous dispositional trait sets in and the close-fitted selfish grip one has on one's external possessions is loosened by generosity (caga, literally means letting go?), one can truly achieve the observance of the Five Precepts, empty the Ten Unwholesome Deeds (the coarse internal defilements/“possessions"), and fill oneself with positive noble qualities (sila). Next comes the emptying of attractive/repulsive sensory inputs by guarding the sense doors, and the suppression/emptying of the Five Hindrances (deep-seated defilements/"possessions") to develop Samadhi (bhavana), which will lead to the deepening insight into the real nature of things and finally the empty of “self” (panna). But the path of dana - sila - bhavana - panna (which is another manifestation of the 8-factored path) starts with dana, the practice of giving. The path for those truly gone forth starts from sila instead of dana, because they have already given away all their external possessions to start the holy life. We as lay disciples can develop and use dana as our first "weapon" for greed/ill will/cruelty.

In order to practice dana and caga, one should first establish Right View of the Buddha's teaching on the law of Karma and dana/caga as one's guide. One should also establish Right Intention/Thought (non-greed, non-ill will, non-harming), practicing dana/caga as the first antidote for greed (linked to stinginess), ill will and cruelty.

dana and caga are the first antidotes for unrighteous greed/stinginess/selfishness, hatred/ill will, and cruelty that a lay practitioner can develop and use; metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha are the second antidotes that can be developed with the quality of caga as the foundatio; the bhavanamaya panna (not just theoretical understanding) of anicca/dukkha/anatta is the third antidote that will finally uproot greed/aversion/delusion but can only be obtained after the successful suppression of greed/aversion/delusion, with dana/caga, metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha, sila and bhavana as the foundation.
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby daverupa » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:31 pm

For your consideration with respect to thinking of the path in these terms: an article by Anālayo.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:10 am

starter wrote:Here is my current understanding of the Buddha's path:

Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:
→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-factored path that is aimed at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 factors and the understanding of 4NT → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Apply Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Right intention/thoughts [striving for non-covetousness (not covet for others' material or immaterial possession that are not entitled to oneself -- not harm others), non-ill will, non-harming]
→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]
→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual misconduct]
→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming livelihood] Addition
→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings]
→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness, Satipatthana]
→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi]



Addition: To get the right amount of perfection of the sila part, livelihood is very importand. The observing of 8 Silas is much better if possible.

In addition to livelihood, all (not only not-harming) aspects of right intention is importand, maybe you find some useful her: Right livelihood - Explainings and Suttas
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby starter » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:49 am

Dear daverupa, Hanzze and other friends,

Thanks for the very helpful comments and reference, which led to the finding of the following Agama sutta, which clearly explained the two paths (mundane 8-fold path and supramundane 8-fold path):

Translation of SĀ 785 by Ven. Anālayo (with my notes in parentheses)

Thus have I heard.

At one time the Buddha was dwelling at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s park. At that
time the Blessed One told the monks …

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見:not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見: being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right view that is [mundane], with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination? If one has the view
that there is [efficacy] in giving, there is [efficacy] in what is spoken … (up­ to) … the
knowledge that there are arahants in this world who will not experience a further existence — this is called right view in this world that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (defilements) gives attention that is conjoined to the Dharma [by way of] investigation, discrimination, inquiry, realization,
wisdom, awakening and contemplative examination — this is called right view that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


[苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應。於法選擇。分別推求。覺知黠慧。開覺觀察。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi?) contemplate each (view?), discriminate each (view as right or wrong view?"分別邪正、真妄", "抉擇正見"), investigate and inquire, breakthrough and realize, gain wisdom, awaken and contemplate]

What is right intention (and right thoughts)? Right intention (and right thoughts) is of two types: There is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is
right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be right intention (and right thoughts) [by way of] thoughts of renunciation (not-covet/not-craving), thoughts of non-ill-will, thoughts of non-harming — this is called right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good
destination.


What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes gives
attention that is conjoined to mental states [by way of] discrimination, self-determination,
understanding, repeated inclination and resolution — this is called right intention (and thoughts)
that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha
and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.


[[無漏 思惟相應心法。分別 自決 意解。計數 立意。In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each (intention/though?), discriminate each, resolve each, understand each. Count each and make resolution for right intention/thoughts]

What is right speech? Right speech is of two types: There is right speech that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right speech that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be right speech [by way of] abstaining from false
speech, from slander, from evil speech and from gossip — this is called right speech that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood 除邪命. 念口四惡行.諸餘口惡行。離於彼。無漏(于諸口恶行).遠離.不著。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the four unwholesome verbal conducts and all other unwholesome verbal conducts and abandon all of them, without wrong speech detach from wrong speech, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes abstains from the four evil verbal activities and
from any other evil verbal activities, removes them and detaches from them, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right speech that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right action? Right action is of two types: There is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination? This is reckoned to
be abstention from killing, from stealing and from sexual misconduct
— this is called right action that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood (除邪命。念身三惡行.諸餘身惡行數。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the three evil bodily conducts and all other unwholesome bodily conducts) with a mind that in the absence of influxes (without wrong action) does not delight in or attach to the three evil bodily activities or to any other of the number of evil bodily activities, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right action that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right livelihood? Right livelihood is of two types: There is right livelihood that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be seeking in accordance with the Dharma for robes and
food, for bedding and for medication in conformity with one’s disease, not [seeking for these]
against the Dharma — this is called right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes [without wrong livelihood] does not
delight in or attach to any wrong livelihood, he strongly guards himself against it and keeps
himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper time and bewares of not overstepping
bounds — this is called right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right effort? Right effort is of two types: There is right effort that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of duk­kha.

What is right effort that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in]
a good destination? This is reckoned to be energetic desire, putting forth surpassing exertion,
being firmly established in it, being able to arouse it, with mental states that take hold of
energy constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is mundane, with influxes,
with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly]
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, (無漏憶念相應心法。Without defilements recollect each of the Dhamma -- abandon wrong view, wrong intention/thoughts, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong Samadhi; develop right view ...) [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes has recollective
mindfulness conjoined to mental states [by way of] energetic desire and effort, putting forth
surpassing diligence, being established in it firmly, able to arouse energy, with mental states
that take hold of [energy] constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is
noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly] eradicates dukkha and turns
towards the transcendence of dukkha.


What is right mindfulness? Right mindfulness is of two types: There is right mindfulness that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right mind- fulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasp- ing,
that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is
not vain — this is called right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that
turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


[若念.隨念.重念.憶念。不妄.不虛。-- The mind has right mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/Dhamma); the mind follows each of the four mindfulness without distraction, unremittingly, without forgetfulness, not false/wrong, not vain]


What is right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, [that
rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (while in deep Samadhi) gives
attention that is conjoined to that [type of] mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is not
vain — this is called right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, [that rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is [when] the mind is settled without disturbance,
imperturbable, having taken hold of quietude and tranquillity, being concentrated (in Samadhi) and with a
unified mind — this is called right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.


What is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, with a mind in the absence of influxes gives attention that is conjoined to
mental states that are settled without disturbance, without loss (不散 not scattered), having taken hold of
tranquillity, being concentrated and with a unified mind [苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應心法住。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each of the 4NT (Dhamma) and enter Samadhi][/u]
— this is called right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.”

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, the monks who had heard what the Buddha had said were
delighted and received it respectfully.

SA 784 (七八四)
如是我闻。一时佛住舍卫国祇树给孤独园。
尔时世尊告诸比丘:“有邪、有正,谛听善思,当为汝说。何等为邪?谓邪见乃至邪定。何等为
正?谓正见乃至正定。何等为正见?谓说有施、有说、有斋,有善行、有恶行、有善恶行果报,有
此世、有他世,有父母、有众生生,有阿罗汉善到、善向,有此世、他世,自知作证具足住:我生
已尽,梵行已立,所作已作,自知不受后有。何等为正志?谓出要志、无恚志、不害志。何等为正
语?谓离妄语、离两舌、离恶口、离绮语。何等为正业?谓离杀、盗、淫。何等为正命?谓如法求
衣服、饮食、卧具、汤药,非不如法。何等为正方便?谓欲精进,方便出离,勤竞堪能,常行不退。
何等为正念?谓念、随顺念,不妄不虚。何等为正定?谓住心不乱、坚固、摄持寂止、三昧一心。”
佛说此经已,诸比丘闻佛所说,欢喜奉行。

SN.45.8/(8) Vibhaṅgasuttaṃ
   8. Sāvatthinidānaṃ. “Ariyaṃ vo, bhikkhave, aṭṭhaṅgikaṃ maggaṃ desessāmi vibhajissāmi. Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha; bhāsissāmī”ti. “Evaṃ, bhante”ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca–
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo? Seyyathidaṃ– sammādiṭṭhi …pe… sammāsamādhi.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, dukkhe ñāṇaṃ, dukkhasamudaye ñāṇaṃ dukkhanirodhe ñāṇaṃ, dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya ñāṇaṃ– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo? Yo kho, bhikkhave, nekkhammasaṅkappo abyāpādasaṅkappo, avihiṃsāsaṅkappo– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāvācā? Yā kho, bhikkhave, musāvādā veramaṇī, pisuṇāya vācāya veramaṇī, pharusāya vācāya veramaṇī, samphappalāpā veramaṇī– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāvācā.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammākammanto? Yā kho, bhikkhave, pāṇātipātā veramaṇī, adinnādānā veramaṇī, abrahmacariyā veramaṇī – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammākammanto.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammā-ājīvo? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako micchā-ājīvaṃ pahāya sammā-ājīvena jīvitaṃ kappeti – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammā-ājīvo.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ anuppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati, uppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ pahānāya chandaṃ janeti …pe… anuppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ uppādāya chandaṃ janeti …pe… uppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṃ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo.
   “Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsati.
   “Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti– ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati– ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhī”ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ.

(七八九)
如是我闻。一时佛住舍卫国祇树给孤独园。
时有生闻婆罗门来诣佛所,稽首佛足,与世尊面相问讯慰劳已,退坐一面,白佛言:“瞿昙,所
谓正见者,何等为正见?”
佛告婆罗门:“正见有二种:有正见世俗、有漏、有取、转向善趣;有正见是圣出世间、无漏、
不取、正尽苦、转向苦边。
“何等为正见世俗、有漏、有取、转向善趣?谓正见有施、有说、有斋,乃至自知不受后有。
婆罗门,是名正见世俗、有漏、有取、向于善趣。
“婆罗门,何等为正见是圣出世间、无漏、不取、正尽苦、转向苦边?谓圣弟子苦苦思惟,集、
灭、道道思惟,无漏思惟相应,于法选择、分别、求觉、巧便、黠慧、观察,是名正见是圣出世间、
无漏、不取、正尽苦、转向苦边。”
佛说此经已,生闻婆罗门闻佛所说,欢喜随喜,从座起去。

《杂阿含经》刘宋元嘉二十年(公元443 年) 求那跋陀罗 译 http://www.dhammatalks.net/Chinese/Dhamma7.pdf [good translation]

SA 785 雜阿含785經[正聞本1042經/佛光本797經](聖道分相應/道品誦/修多羅)(莊春江標點)
  如是我聞:
  一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。
  爾時,世尊告諸比丘(如上說,差別者):
  「何等為正見?謂正見有二種:有正見是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正見是聖、出世間、無漏、無取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正見有漏、有取、向於善趣?若彼見有施,有說,……乃至知世間有阿羅漢,不受後有,是名世間正見,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等為正見是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應於法,選擇、分別、推求、覺知、黠慧、開覺、觀察,是名正見,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正志?謂正志[有]二種:有正志世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正志有世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣?謂:正志出要覺,無恚覺,不害覺,是名正志,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,分別、自決、意解、計數、立意,是名正志,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正語?正語有二種:有正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣?謂:正語離妄語、兩舌、惡口、綺語,是名正語,世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
  何等正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,除邪命{念}[貪],口四惡行,諸餘口惡行離,於彼無漏遠離不著,固守攝持不犯,不度時節,不越限防,是名正語,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正業?正業有二種:有正業世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣;有正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正業,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:離殺、盜、婬,是名正業,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,除邪命{念}[貪],身三惡行,諸餘身惡行數,{於諸身惡行}無漏心不樂著,固守執持不犯,不度時節,不越限防,是名正業,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正命?正命有二種:有正命是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正命世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:如法求衣食、臥具、隨病湯藥,非不如法,是名正命,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,於諸邪命,無漏不樂著,固守執持不犯,不越時節,不度限防,是名正命,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正方便?正方便有二種:有正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?謂:欲精進,方便超出,堅固建立,堪能造作,精進心法攝受,常不休息,是名正方便,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、[正]盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏憶念相應心法,欲精進方便,勤踊超出,建立堅固,堪能造作,精進心法攝受,常不休息,是名正方便,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正念?正念有二種:[有正念是]世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正念世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?若念、隨念、重念、憶念,不妄不虛,是名正念,世俗、有漏、有取、正向善趣。
  何等為正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應,若念、隨念、重念、憶念,不妄不虛,是名正念,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正定?正定有二種:有正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣;有正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
  何等為正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣?若心住不亂不動,攝受寂止、三昧、一心,是名正定,世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
  何等為正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊?謂:聖弟子苦、苦思惟,集……滅……道、道思惟,無漏思惟相應心法,住不亂不散,攝受寂止、三昧、一心,是名正定,是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。」
  佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。

Metta to all!
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:10 am

which clearly explained the two path

Dear Starter,

I would not call them two paths even they seem to be. Its quite better to walk the path and seek for additional advices if the aspects of the path become so subtile that they seem to be no more present. Of course, while disscussing it, its sometimes useful to make a make if one talks about the worldly asspects or the higher aspects.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby starter » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:05 pm

The Chinese translation of assavas (or better "leaks") not only means the three root defilements ("leak" for sensual pleasures, "leak" for being/becoming, and "leak" for ignorance), but also means not intact/perfect in something (with defect in something) -- only when something has a "leak", the "influxes" can come in and "effluxes" can go out. As can be seen in the Chinese translation of SĀ 785: "於諸邪命,無漏不樂著" [no "leak" (defect) and no delight in/attachments to wrong action/livelihood], "in the absence of influxes" actually means "being perfected in right action". The same applied to all the path factors defined in SĀ 785, SĀ 789, and MN 117:

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見:not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見: being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

...

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes (有漏于正定:not being perfected in right concentration), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正定: being perfected in right concentration), without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha."

MN 117:

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with influxes, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without influxes (being perfected in right view), transcendent, a factor of the path. ... the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from influxes (has no wrong view), who is fully possessed of the noble path (the path factor of right view). This is the right view that is without influxes (defects), transcendent, a factor of the path."


To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana). For the supramundane path each path factor is perfected and hence has no "leak" for each; the noble disciples perfect and hence possess each path factor one after another, which leads to liberation from dukkha (destined for nibbana).

Metta to all!
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Re: The Buddha's path to liberation

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 am

Starter,

To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana).

A good destination (think on counciousness) is a require and the first turn of the wheel. The worldly eigthfold path is nothing but the first turn of the wheel. If established for the first time (sotapanna) one can go an to the higher aspects.

But I tell you, if one is attached to the higher aspects and have not developed the worldy path yet, he might fail both.

You can call the higher aspects of the eightfold path also mahayana if you wish.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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