The Buddha's path to liberation

[starter]

Hello teachers/friends,

After seeing the wrong view/speech/conduct/samadhi of some practitioners/teachers, I've realized that only doing meditation and contemplations of 5 aggregates / dependent origination / 3 characteristics is not enough to eliminate the unwholesome habits/underline tendencies and wrong understandings etc. The foundation of our path is built upon N8P. Without a solid foundation of N8P, it's impossible to really reach nibbana. Therefore, I'd like to share with you my understanding of the Buddha's path and would appreciate your comments/advice, as always.

Learning the true dhamma/reflective acceptance of the dhamma
→ Right view/understanding [right view of the law of karma to start the mundane path and right view of the 4NT to start the supramundane path] → faith (saddhā)
→ right intention [non-craving, non-greed/non-ill will, non-malice, non-harming/non-ignorance, non-delusion] → right attention (yoniso manasikara)→ right verbal/bodily/mental conduct:
→ right speech [not false / malicious / harsh / pointless / hurried / untimely / extolling or disparaging ... -- no unbeneficial speech]
→ right conduct [no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct ...]
→ right livelihood
→ right effort [the 4 exertions -- developing the skilful and abandoning the unskilful; sense restraint, not reacting with desire or aversion to sensory objects]
→ right mindfulness [of body/feeling/mind/the Dhamma (including the 4NT)]
→ discrimination, analysis and contemplation of the Dhamma (dhamma-vicaya) [the true teachings: ... 4 elements / 5 aggregates / 6 sense sets / 7 enlightenment factors / DO / 3 characteristics / 4NT / 5 hindrances ...; clearly distinguishing between wholesome and unwholesome mental qualities/states to surpress 5 hindrances]
→ unshakable faith (saddhā) → ardency/energetic effort to remove 5 hindrances (viriya) [to strive to practice in accordance with the true teachings (during daily practice); to be ardent on keeping the mind on the meditation object (during meditation)]
→ overcoming of the five hindrances
→ joy(pāmojja) → rapture (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha)
→ right samādhi [the 4 jhanas, or any singleness of mind equipped with the seven preceding right factors; "body-witness" ]
→ upekkha [mental/psychological/emotional neutrality]
→ investigation/contemplation of Dhammas [wholesome/unwholesome, 4 elements / 5 aggregates / 6 sense sets], via direct experience.
→ right insight knowledge for liberation: (sammā-ñāṇa) true knowledge ["eye-witness" for the four noble truths which include DO & 3 characteristics ...]
→ disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → cessation [of defilements (roots: greed/aversion/delusion) and attachments -- remain un-attracted, un-repelled and detached from five aggregates]
→ right liberation [from Samsara, from five aggregates]: nibbana.

My gratitude and metta to all,

Starter

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Starter,

I agree with the necessity of the Noble Eightfold Path - no meditation technique alone is a substitute for the Buddha's path, as detailed in the suttas.

The insight meditations and contemplations you detail are valuable, if they lead to right knowledge. It's getting to that Right Knowledge which is the challenge, because once you really know how all things are, the subsequent dispassion and release would be a natural consequence of this knowledge. Therefore, don't lose faith in them... just test them until you can see how they actually lead to knowledge of all formations.

Metta,
Retro.

[rowyourboat]

In view of the below sutta, see if your structure is compatible:



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Tipitaka Anguttara Nikaya Tens
AN 10.7PTS: A v 8
Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2011
Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

With metta

Matheesha

[starter]

In view of the below sutta, see if your structure is compatible:

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

Hello Matheesha,

Many thanks for the sutta. Interesting to note that Ven. Sariputta was still percipient of the cessation of becoming in the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling, not being unconscious. To my understanding of DO, the cessation of becoming is the result of the cessation of craving/clinging -- the cessation of assavas (greed/hatred/delusion), not the cessation of awareness, and nibbana is the result of the cessation of becoming -- "the stilling of all formations", sabba-saṅkhāra-samatha, first refers to the stilling of the kamma producing volitional formations (desires/cravings) during this very life, which will end the future rebirth, and consequently, the complete stilling/cessation of all conditioned phenomena (sankhara) at the death of the arahant. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks to Retro for the helpful comment as well. Indeed meditation alone is not sufficient for nibbana.

Metta to all,

Starter

[rowyourboat]

No I would retreact my earlier position that lack of consciousness was a requirement for nibbana, but still maintain that there cannot be arising and passing away in nibbana- that there is a nibbana 'dhathu' which can be perceived as blackness or an emptiness, especially in the phala states, which seems to be a mix of samatha and vipassana, as Ven Nananda claims. Controlled removal of the consciousness that perceived nibbana is not impossible either, as those few verses that describe anidassana vinnana suggests. All degrees on 'extinguishment' can be called nibbana (which is one meaning of it) including further ceasing refinements in jhana.

So whereabouts in your practice are you? Morality, honesty, generosity, kindness, metta, renunciation, kind speech, reducing ones defilements are all part of the practice.

With metta

Matheesha

[LastLegend]

The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.

[rowyourboat]

The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.

Hi Lastlegend,

I believe you are right. For a fuller description of (supramundane) right view:

"Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta

Matheesha

[starter]

The point of right view is to keep one's mind pure (the mind is not pure when it's attached to for examples pleasure, self-indulgence, fame, knowledge and from these attachments one cannot have the right view) . And this is what conduct (such as keeping precepts,vows, not breaking laws) is for. And after one has taken refuge in Buddha (Awakened), one should now alway remember to have the right view because Buddha always has right view. Also rely on Buddha's teachings for right view.

-- Only a hindrance-free mind can recognize the truth and hence obtain the right view. Please see the discussions on this thread if interested:
The first noble knowledge – how to realize the truth [http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6025]

Metta to all,

Starter

[LastLegend]

Thank you starter.

I believe practice is wholesome in that we try our best to chop off attachments (such as lust, wealth, fame, eating, sleeping for examples) so that the mind has less hindrance in order to achieve concentration through meditation. By following Dhamma (true teachings of Buddha), will have true or right view because Buddha's teachings are Truth. But to have right views on our own, we have to reach Arahant until then we have to rely on Buddha's teachings.

[starter]

Thank you starter.

I believe practice is wholesome in that we try our best to chop off attachments (such as lust, wealth, fame, eating, sleeping for examples) so that the mind has less hindrance in order to achieve concentration through meditation. By following Dhamma (true teachings of Buddha), will have true or right view because Buddha's teachings are Truth. But to have right views on our own, we have to reach Arahant until then we have to rely on Buddha's teachings.

Hm ... I tend to think that the Buddha's teachings are the pointers to the truth. We've to figure out "the pointed (the "moon") by ourselves. The Buddha taught us to examine even his teachings before accepting them (MN 95). This is especially necessary now considering how the teachings have been transmitted and translated over so many years ...

By the way, since MN 95 is mentioned, I'd like to review the following teachings together with our friends:

"... There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."

"But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth."

Metta to all,

Starter

[starter]

Hm... interesting to note that the Buddha's path consists of the following numbers:

37 -- Aids to enlightenment
12 -- DO
10 -- 10 courses of skillful action
8 -- N8P
7 -- 7 enlightenment factors
6 -- 6 sense sets (the All); restrain 6 senses
5 -- 5 precepts; 5 aggregates; overcoming 5 hindrances; 5 faculties
4 -- 4NT; 4 exertions; 4 mindfulness;
3 -- 3 resolves (non-greed / non-aversion / non-delusion]; 3 characteristics (anicca/dukkha/anatta]; triangle [plus -- gratification / minus -- danger / escape -- release];
2 -- tranquility and insight
1 -- the unconditioned, nibbana, with residue
0 -- 0 residue; nibbana

Welcome to add more. Thanks and metta to all,

Starter

[starter]

Interesting to learn from Ven. Bodhi's lecture based on his book "In the Buddha's Words" (http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html, 10c) that "unshakable faith" is actually a commentary translation. The real meaning of the pali terms (?) is "confirmed confidence", the reflective acceptance of and trust in the Buddha's teachings, one of the four factors of the stream entry. How come that the commentary interpreted the terms into "unshakable faith"? I suppose "confirmed confidence" is not really 100% unshakable.

Metta to all,

Starter

[daverupa]

I suppose "confirmed confidence" is not really 100% unshakable.

Confidence, then confirmed in one's practice. That's unshakeable.

[starter]

Here is my current understanding of the Buddha's path:

Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:
→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-factored path that is aimed at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 factors and the understanding of 4NT → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Apply Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Right intention/thoughts [striving for non-covetousness (not covet for others' material or immaterial possession that are not entitled to oneself -- not harm others)/non-stinginess (practicing dana - giving and caga - generosity)/non-sensual desire, non-ill will, non-harming]
→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]
→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual misconduct]
→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming, wholesome livelihood]
→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings]
→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness, Satipatthana]
→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi]

→ Noble Right view of the 4 Noble Truths (which is not to be obtained by only studying the teachings), unshakable Faith, enter the Noble 8-factored path that is aimed at the perfection of the 8 factors and nibbana, and apply Right attention (culmination of yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Noble Right intention/thoughts [culmination of non-sensuality, non-ill will, non-harming]
→ Noble Right speech [culmination of no un-wholesome/un-beneficial speech]
→ Noble Right conduct [culmination of no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]
→ Noble Right livelihood [culmination of wholesome, beneficial livelihood and contentment]
→ Noble Right effort [culmination of sense restraint, wakefulness, mindfulness/full awareness and right/clear comprehension]
→ Noble Right mindfulness [culmination of the 4 mindfulness]
→ Noble Right Samādhi [the 4 jhanas]

→ Noble Right knowledge for liberation: know/see things as they truly are without delusion and attachments -- the 5 aggregates/6 sense objects are all anicca/dukkha/anatta.
→ Noble Right liberation [from Samsara, from five aggregates]: nibbana.

Your correction/comments would be appreciated. Metta to all!

starter

PS: a related topic: The place of dana and caga in the path & its development (viewtopic.php?f=42&t=14220)
The Buddha’s path comprises a gradual process of emptying “self”. It starts with giving away one's external possessions (dana). Only when the generous dispositional trait sets in and the close-fitted selfish grip one has on one's external possessions is loosened by generosity (caga, literally means letting go?), one can truly achieve the observance of the Five Precepts, empty the Ten Unwholesome Deeds (the coarse internal defilements/“possessions"), and fill oneself with positive noble qualities (sila). Next comes the emptying of attractive/repulsive sensory inputs by guarding the sense doors, and the suppression/emptying of the Five Hindrances (deep-seated defilements/"possessions") to develop Samadhi (bhavana), which will lead to the deepening insight into the real nature of things and finally the empty of “self” (panna). But the path of dana - sila - bhavana - panna (which is another manifestation of the 8-factored path) starts with dana, the practice of giving. The path for those truly gone forth starts from sila instead of dana, because they have already given away all their external possessions to start the holy life. We as lay disciples can develop and use dana as our first "weapon" for greed/ill will/cruelty.

In order to practice dana and caga, one should first establish Right View of the Buddha's teaching on the law of Karma and dana/caga as one's guide. One should also establish Right Intention/Thought (non-greed, non-ill will, non-harming), practicing dana/caga as the first antidote for greed (linked to stinginess), ill will and cruelty.

dana and caga are the first antidotes for unrighteous greed/stinginess/selfishness, hatred/ill will, and cruelty that a lay practitioner can develop and use; metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha are the second antidotes that can be developed with the quality of caga as the foundatio; the bhavanamaya panna (not just theoretical understanding) of anicca/dukkha/anatta is the third antidote that will finally uproot greed/aversion/delusion but can only be obtained after the successful suppression of greed/aversion/delusion, with dana/caga, metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha, sila and bhavana as the foundation.

Another related topic: Right way to cultivate Right Intention/Thoughts (samma sankappa)? (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12604)

[daverupa]

For your consideration with respect to thinking of the path in these terms: an article by Anālayo.

[Hanzze]

Here is my current understanding of the Buddha's path:

Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:
→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-factored path that is aimed at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 factors and the understanding of 4NT → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Apply Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara) to all the following:
→ Right intention/thoughts [striving for non-covetousness (not covet for others' material or immaterial possession that are not entitled to oneself -- not harm others), non-ill will, non-harming]
→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]
→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual misconduct]
→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming livelihood] Addition
→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings]
→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness, Satipatthana]
→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi]

Addition: To get the right amount of perfection of the sila part, livelihood is very importand. The observing of 8 Silas is much better if possible.

In addition to livelihood, all (not only not-harming) aspects of right intention is importand, maybe you find some useful her: Right livelihood - Explainings and Suttas

[starter]

Dear daverupa, Hanzze and other friends,

Thanks for the very helpful comments and reference, which led to the finding of the following Agama sutta, which clearly explained the two paths (mundane 8-fold path and supramundane 8-fold path):

Translation of SĀ 785 by Ven. Anālayo (with my notes in parentheses)

Thus have I heard.

At one time the Buddha was dwelling at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s park. At that
time the Blessed One told the monks …

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見：not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見： being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right view that is [mundane], with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination? If one has the view
that there is [efficacy] in giving, there is [efficacy] in what is spoken … (up­ to) … the
knowledge that there are arahants in this world who will not experience a further existence — this is called right view in this world that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (defilements) gives attention that is conjoined to the Dharma [by way of] investigation, discrimination, inquiry, realization,
wisdom, awakening and contemplative examination — this is called right view that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.

[苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應。於法選擇。分別推求。覺知黠慧。開覺觀察。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi?) contemplate each (view?), discriminate each (view as right or wrong view?"分別邪正、真妄", "抉擇正見"), investigate and inquire, breakthrough and realize, gain wisdom, awaken and contemplate]

What is right intention (and right thoughts)? Right intention (and right thoughts) is of two types: There is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is
right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards
[rebirth in] a good destination (and right thoughts)? This is reckoned to be right intention (and right thoughts) [by way of] thoughts of renunciation (not-covet/not-craving), thoughts of non-ill-will, thoughts of non-harming — this is called right intention (and right thoughts) that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good
destination.

What is right intention (and right thoughts) that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes gives
attention that is conjoined to mental states [by way of] discrimination, self-determination,
understanding, repeated inclination and resolution — this is called right intention (and thoughts)
that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha
and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

[[無漏 思惟相應心法。分別 自決 意解。計數 立意。In the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each (intention/though?), discriminate each, resolve each, understand each. Count each and make resolution for right intention/thoughts]

What is right speech? Right speech is of two types: There is right speech that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right speech that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be right speech [by way of] abstaining from false
speech, from slander, from evil speech and from gossip — this is called right speech that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right speech that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood 除邪命. 念口四惡行．諸餘口惡行。離於彼。無漏(于諸口恶行）．遠離．不著。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the four unwholesome verbal conducts and all other unwholesome verbal conducts and abandon all of them, without wrong speech detach from wrong speech, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes abstains from the four evil verbal activities and
from any other evil verbal activities, removes them and detaches from them, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right speech that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right action? Right action is of two types: There is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, [that turns] towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha. What is right action that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination? This is reckoned to
be abstention from killing, from stealing and from sexual misconduct
— this is called right action that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right action that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, [having] gotten rid of desire [related to] wrong livelihood (除邪命。念身三惡行．諸餘身惡行數。Having abandoned wrong livelihood, being mindful of the three evil bodily conducts and all other unwholesome bodily conducts) with a mind that in the absence of influxes (without wrong action) does not delight in or attach to the three evil bodily activities or to any other of the number of evil bodily activities, he strongly guards
himself against them and keeps himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper
time and bewares of not overstepping bounds — this is called right action that is noble,
supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards
the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right livelihood? Right livelihood is of two types: There is right livelihood that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth
in] a good destination? This is reckoned to be seeking in accordance with the Dharma for robes and
food, for bedding and for medication in conformity with one’s disease, not [seeking for these]
against the Dharma — this is called right livelihood that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes [without wrong livelihood] does not
delight in or attach to any wrong livelihood, he strongly guards himself against it and keeps
himself back so as to not transgress, does not go beyond the proper time and bewares of not overstepping
bounds — this is called right livelihood that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right effort? Right effort is of two types: There is right effort that is mundane, with
influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right
effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that rightly eradicates
dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of duk­kha.

What is right effort that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in]
a good destination? This is reckoned to be energetic desire, putting forth surpassing exertion,
being firmly established in it, being able to arouse it, with mental states that take hold of
energy constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is mundane, with influxes,
with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right effort that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly]
eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be [when] a
noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to its
cessation … and to the path as path, (無漏憶念相應心法。Without defilements recollect each of the Dhamma -- abandon wrong view, wrong intention/thoughts, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong Samadhi; develop right view ...) [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes has recollective
mindfulness conjoined to mental states [by way of] energetic desire and effort, putting forth
surpassing diligence, being established in it firmly, able to arouse energy, with mental states
that take hold of [energy] constantly, without remission — this is called right effort that is
noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that [rightly] eradicates dukkha and turns
towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right mindfulness? Right mindfulness is of two types: There is right mindfulness that is
mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right mind- fulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasp- ing,
that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is
not vain — this is called right mindfulness that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that
turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

[若念．隨念．重念．憶念。不妄．不虛。-- The mind has right mindfulness (of body/feeling/mind/Dhamma); the mind follows each of the four mindfulness without distraction, unremittingly, without forgetfulness, not false/wrong, not vain]

What is right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, [that
rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, [with a mind that] in the absence of influxes (while in deep Samadhi) gives
attention that is conjoined to that [type of] mindfulness that is in conformity with being mindful,
with repeated mindfulness, with recollective mindfulness that is without forgetfulness, that is not
vain — this is called right mindfulness that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, [that rightly eradicates dukkha] and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and
there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

What is right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping, that turns towards
[rebirth in] a good destination? This is [when] the mind is settled without disturbance,
imperturbable, having taken hold of quietude and tranquillity, being concentrated (in Samadhi) and with a
unified mind — this is called right concentration that is mundane, with influxes, with grasping,
that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination.

What is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be
[when] a noble disciple gives attention to dukkha as dukkha, gives attention to its arising … to
its cessation … and to the path as path, with a mind in the absence of influxes gives attention that is conjoined to
mental states that are settled without disturbance, without loss (不散 not scattered), having taken hold of
tranquillity, being concentrated and with a unified mind [苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應心法住。... attend to suffering and contemplate suffering; attend to the cause of suffering and contemplate the cause; attend to the cessation of suffering and contemplate the cessation; attend to the path and contemplate the path. In the absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplate each of the 4NT (Dhamma) and enter Samadhi][/u]
— this is called right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes, without
grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.”

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, the monks who had heard what the Buddha had said were
delighted and received it respectfully.

雜阿含785經[正聞本1042經/佛光本797經](聖道分相應/道品誦/修多羅)(莊春江標點)
　　如是我聞：
　　一時，佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。
　　爾時，世尊告諸比丘（如上說，差別者）：
　　「何等為正見？謂正見有二種：有正見是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣；有正見是聖、出世間、無漏、無取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正見有漏、有取、向於善趣？若彼見有施，有說，……乃至知世間有阿羅漢，不受後有，是名世間正見，世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
　　何等為正見是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應於法，選擇、分別、推求、覺知、黠慧、開覺、觀察，是名正見，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正志？謂正志[有]二種：有正志世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣；有正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正志有世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣？謂：正志出要覺，無恚覺，不害覺，是名正志，世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
　　何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應心法，分別、自決、意解、計數、立意，是名正志，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正語？正語有二種：有正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣；有正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正語世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣？謂：正語離妄語、兩舌、惡口、綺語，是名正語，世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣。
　　何等正語是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，除邪命{念}[貪]，口四惡行，諸餘口惡行離，於彼無漏遠離不著，固守攝持不犯，不度時節，不越限防，是名正語，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正業？正業有二種：有正業世俗、有漏、有取、向於善趣；有正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正業，世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣？謂：離殺、盜、婬，是名正業，世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
　　何等為正業是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，除邪命{念}[貪]，身三惡行，諸餘身惡行數，{於諸身惡行}無漏心不樂著，固守執持不犯，不度時節，不越限防，是名正業，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正命？正命有二種：有正命是世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣；有正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正命世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣？謂：如法求衣食、臥具、隨病湯藥，非不如法，是名正命，世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
　　何等為正命是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，於諸邪命，無漏不樂著，固守執持不犯，不越時節，不度限防，是名正命，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正方便？正方便有二種：有正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣；有正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正方便世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣？謂：欲精進，方便超出，堅固建立，堪能造作，精進心法攝受，常不休息，是名正方便，世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
　　何等為正方便是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、[正]盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏憶念相應心法，欲精進方便，勤踊超出，建立堅固，堪能造作，精進心法攝受，常不休息，是名正方便，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正念？正念有二種：[有正念是]世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣；有正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正念世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣？若念、隨念、重念、憶念，不妄不虛，是名正念，世俗、有漏、有取、正向善趣。
　　何等為正念是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應，若念、隨念、重念、憶念，不妄不虛，是名正念，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正定？正定有二種：有正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣；有正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。
　　何等為正定世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣？若心住不亂不動，攝受寂止、三昧、一心，是名正定，世俗、有漏、有取、轉向善趣。
　　何等為正定是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應心法，住不亂不散，攝受寂止、三昧、一心，是名正定，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。」
　　佛說此經已，諸比丘聞佛所說，歡喜奉行。

Metta to all!

[Hanzze]

which clearly explained the two path

Dear Starter,

I would not call them two paths even they seem to be. Its quite better to walk the path and seek for additional advices if the aspects of the path become so subtile that they seem to be no more present. Of course, while disscussing it, its sometimes useful to make a make if one talks about the worldly asspects or the higher aspects.

[starter]

The Chinese translation of assavas (or better "leaks") not only means the three root defilements ("leak" for sensual pleasures, "leak" for being/becoming, and "leak" for ignorance), but also means not intact/perfect in something (with defect in something) -- only when something has a "leak", the "influxes" can come in and "effluxes" can go out. As can be seen in the Chinese translation of SĀ 785: "於諸邪命，無漏不樂著" [no "leak" (defect) and no delight in/attachments to wrong action/livelihood], "in the absence of influxes" actually means "being perfected in right action". The same applied to all the path factors defined in SĀ 785, SĀ 789, and MN 117:

“What is right view? Right view is of two types: There is right view that is mundane, with
influxes (有漏于正見：not being perfected in right view), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right view that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正見： being perfected in right view), without grasping, that rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha.

...

What is right concentration? Right concentration is of two types: There is right concentration that
is mundane, with influxes (有漏于正定：not being perfected in right concentration), with grasping, that turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination; and there is right concentration that is noble, supramundane, without influxes (无漏于正定： being perfected in right concentration), without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha."

MN 117:

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with influxes, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without influxes (being perfected in right view), transcendent, a factor of the path. ... the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from influxes (has no wrong view), who is fully possessed of the noble path (the path factor of right view). This is the right view that is without influxes (defects), transcendent, a factor of the path."


To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana). For the supramundane path each path factor is perfected and hence has no "leak" for each; the noble disciples perfect and hence possess each path factor one after another, which leads to liberation from dukkha (destined for nibbana).

Metta to all!

[Hanzze]

Starter,

To my understanding, the path factors are not perfected and hence have "leaks" (defects) for the mundane path (therefore "turns towards [rebirth in] a good destination", not yet destined for nibbana).

A good destination (think on counciousness) is a require and the first turn of the wheel. The worldly eigthfold path is nothing but the first turn of the wheel. If established for the first time (sotapanna) one can go an to the higher aspects.

But I tell you, if one is attached to the higher aspects and have not developed the worldy path yet, he might fail both.

You can call the higher aspects of the eightfold path also mahayana if you wish.