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suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga) - Dhamma Wheel

suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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dharmaamrita
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suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby dharmaamrita » Sat May 07, 2011 3:06 pm

where in the suttas are kasinas described? As described in the vishudhimagga?

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bodom
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby bodom » Sat May 07, 2011 3:30 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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dharmaamrita
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby dharmaamrita » Sat May 07, 2011 4:47 pm

thank you bodom! This was exactly what i wanted. Metta :-)

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mirco
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Re: suttas and the kasinas (vishudhimagga)

Postby mirco » Sat May 07, 2011 8:23 pm

Not quite often, ain't it?

I don't get, why this object of meditation is rarely found in the suttas but stressed that much in the VM and takes much space in meditation teaching.

If it was that meaningfull as it is treated today, why did the Buddha did not teach it more often, e.g. like anapanasati or metta?

Just wondering...



Be Well
:) _()_
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

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mikenz66
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 07, 2011 9:21 pm

The ten Kasisnas are also in, at least, MN 77 http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... yi-e1.html

My view is that the Suttas are very light on specific meditation instructions. These techniques were taught by personal instruction (as today - see the sutta reference below), and it is likely that the various concentration techniques were common knowledge among various sects at the time. Even with regard to the Ananpanasati Sutta, which is by far the most detailed sutta in terms of technique there are long threads here discussing exactly how one might implement it, and whole books by a variety of modern teachers with quite different interpretations of how to use that Sutta in practice.

This lack of specifics in technique is, perhaps, because it's not the specific technique that is important, but the result. So it is important to measure one's experience against suttas describing right concentration, mindfulness etc, but not so important to worry about which particular object one used for concentration (for example) and whether that object was one that the Buddha taught.

Given suttas such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html where the Buddha tells his followers to ask someone skilled in tranquillity and/or insight for specific instructions, my view is that searching for detailed instructions on such matters in the suttas is likely to be a futile exercise.

:anjali:
Mike

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dharmaamrita
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby dharmaamrita » Sat May 07, 2011 9:28 pm


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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 07, 2011 9:46 pm


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dharmaamrita
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby dharmaamrita » Sat May 07, 2011 9:59 pm

well i havent advanced much in my training and im from a place lacking a buddhist teacher. So the suttas provide me with most help. Does it mean perhaps that when one overcomes the 5 hindrances and withdraws completely from sensual lust then one enters the first jhana automaticly through practice of everyday mindfulness and vipassana without using kasinas. Its unfortunate the suttas dont expound the actual practice of meditation in a lot of detail.

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retrofuturist
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 07, 2011 10:03 pm

Greetings,

I think there's a certain degree of pragmatism involved to the extent that if a meditation 'technique' can achieve the intended aims in relation to jhana and samadhi, it wouldn't matter if it were a case of sitting cross-legged or sitting on one's head.

I'd be very surprised if kasinas didn't pre-date the Buddha, and if the Buddha saw that certain ascetics were already proficient in achieving jhana through this method, it hard to see why he would then turn around and go, "No, actually, that method is no good... you must do this way instead". Anapanasati, kasina, sitting on your head.... so long as there could be Right Samadhi when the technique was conjoined with Right View, I don't think there would have been a problem.

The comparative lack of references in the Sutta Pitaka though would presumably indicate though that it wasn't the Buddha's 'technique of choice'.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Ben
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby Ben » Sat May 07, 2011 10:09 pm

Hi Retro

The jhanas actually predate the Buddha. In the Noble Search, the Buddha talks of his two teachers who taught him the seventh and eighth jhanas. Also, anapana-sati predated the Buddha. In another sutta, I don't recall which one, the Buddha talks of attending a festival when he was either four or six and then sitting under a tree, started observing respiration and experienced the first jhana.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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bodom
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby bodom » Sat May 07, 2011 10:13 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Alex123
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 08, 2011 2:37 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Kenshou
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby Kenshou » Sun May 08, 2011 3:57 am


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daverupa
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby daverupa » Sun May 08, 2011 4:14 am


serg_o
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby serg_o » Sun May 08, 2011 6:04 am


rowyourboat
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 08, 2011 1:45 pm

Hi Serg_o,

It could also be the mental image of earth- it is possible to make this 'boundless' etc and play with it in the mind. It does give rise to quite a bit of samadhi. Apart from that function, I suppose it is good to notice the impermanence of such images/objects/colours and free your mind from any attachment to those aspects of Rupa/sensuality.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Alex123
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 08, 2011 1:54 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

LastLegend
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby LastLegend » Sun May 08, 2011 3:01 pm

With specific techniques, Buddha did not talk of such because we have different capacities. And for Buddha to say specific techniques would be attachment to techniques on his part-unless what he said can be applied to all.

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Alex123
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 08, 2011 3:51 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mirco
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Re: suttas and the kasinas(vishudhimagga)

Postby mirco » Sun May 08, 2011 4:07 pm

"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -


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