the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Aloka
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by Aloka »

Ben wrote:Death can come at any time, unspoken. Rather than worry about where you will end up if you die while asleep, I suggest you concentrate on doing what needs to be done to eliminate the causes of suffering in this life. This, I think, will be more beneficial.
Well said, Ben.

:buddha1:
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ground
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by ground »

unspoken wrote:My question is : If we die suddenly when we sleep, let's say we are sleeping, but suddenly the wall collapse and bricks knocked the head and die instantly. Then what are the possibilities of our next rebirth?
That depends on your condition when this happens. In some sense one is practicing for just that moment that may come unexpectedly and even if it comes expectedly there is no garantee that your condtion is favorable in exactly this moment. That is why one practices as long as there is opportunity. In this sense practice is preparation for this moment.

Kind regards
unspoken
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by unspoken »

I just curious for those who passed away due to some accidents when they are sleeping. Where are they going?
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ground
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by ground »

We do not know what deeds done and what kind of motivations of the past are effective in others. And even if we did know we could not infer the fruition.

kind regards
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acinteyyo
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by acinteyyo »

unspoken wrote:I just curious for those who passed away due to some accidents when they are sleeping. Where are they going?
"Where are they going?" Is not a skillful question, because one gets entangled in (wrong) self-views. It would be better to leave it aside.
Ben wrote:Death can come at any time, unspoken. Rather than worry about where you will end up if you die while asleep, I suggest you concentrate on doing what needs to be done to eliminate the causes of suffering in this life. This, I think, will be more beneficial.
kind regards

Ben


best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
unspoken
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by unspoken »

I'm just afraid that, if I am not dying consciously. Because what if I'm in a nightmare when I die suddenly, I'm in a state of fright. And if rebirth in a realm where I am ruled by feelings of fright and emotionally unstable, my practice will be hindered.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by acinteyyo »

unspoken wrote:I'm just afraid that, if I am not dying consciously. Because what if I'm in a nightmare when I die suddenly, I'm in a state of fright. And if rebirth in a realm where I am ruled by feelings of fright and emotionally unstable, my practice will be hindered.
Greetings unspoken,

I understand your concerns, but wasting your time pondering about what might happen in the future definitely hinders your practice now. Better use the time for practice here and now!

MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' [...] "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices.
SN12.20Paccaya Sutta: Requisite Conditions
"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
unspoken
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by unspoken »

But is there anyway? To be mindful during sleep?
plwk
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by plwk »

But is there anyway? To be mindful during sleep?
Hatthaka Sutta Sudatta Sutta Maha-Assapura Sutta
beeblebrox
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Re: Possible rebirth?

Post by beeblebrox »

unspoken wrote:But is there anyway? To be mindful during sleep?
It's possible - an article on lucid dreaming. I used to lucid dream all the time when I was a kid, but unfortunately I didn't think it was that special, and eventually fell out of practice.

I still get a fully lucid dream maybe every few months or so, and always find some interesting differences between dreaming and the waking. The rest of time, I'm still vaguely aware, but I do nothing about it. Right after I awake, I just bring back my mindfulness... after some practice, you can do this within few seconds, or even immediately.

I haven't really found any motivation to bring my lucid dreaming into a full practice, though... I'd rather just drop into sleeping, and then just awake. If you do decide to practice this, just don't forget your Dhamma practice.

:anjali:
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dharmaamrita
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dharmaamrita »

the concept of rebirth only applies to one who holds the self-view. Realize annata and such questions like will 'i' be reborn, how will 'my' karma affect me wont apply instead you will only see cause and effect one thing arising dependent on another and another arising conditioned by another. This existence is a web of cause and effect (paticca samupada). Understand that 1st hand and annata will be the view held. Then the irrelevance of the question of rebirth will be clear. Who is there to be reborn when all there is, is the 5 khandas brought about by paticca samupada, impermanent and changing from this to that.
nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by nowheat »

SN 44.9 "The Debating Hall
"But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"

"Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time."

"And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"

"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

[source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]
Doesn't this answer the question? If we are to take the suttas literally and not prejudice the readings with our own interpretations as metaphors, then the Buddha says right here that it is a being that gets reborn, and that the vehicle that carries it from one body to the next (so it is "reincarnation" isn't it?) is craving.
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Re: SN 44.9:
nowheat wrote:Doesn't this answer the question? If we are to take the suttas literally and not prejudice the readings with our own interpretations as metaphors, then the Buddha says right here that it is a being that gets reborn, and that the vehicle that carries it from one body to the next (so it is "reincarnation" isn't it?) is craving.
SN 23.2:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

---

Practice for the ending of craving, rather than studying for the understanding of rebirth - which makes sense anyway (and which is not transmigration or reincarnation at all) once one is an ariyasavaka.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
pulga
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pulga »

It doesn't necessarily "prove" rebirth, but here's an interesting video I just came across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0gXME8GeE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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icyteru
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by icyteru »

Proof of rebirth / some people call it reincarnation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF3KqGpxXvo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-KUwz0vodQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The most complete english tipitaka on the internet world. http://realtruthlife.blogspot.com .
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