To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Yes
36
58%
No
20
32%
Not Sure
6
10%
 
Total votes: 62

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:47 pm

It seems like Peter is usually making the same point: keep your eye on the ball.
Is it useful? What is the logical outcome of x, y or z? All the while keeping practice and progress in mind.

I like it :reading:

I admit that I haven't read through this whole thread, just a few of Peter's posts. But this suggestion, to consider what is useful and practical seems much more useful than the endless poking at rebirth. I wrote this in another forum and I believe it's true:

If you don't believe in rebirth, hurry up and focus on the here and now! It's all you have, so make the most of it. If you do believe in rebirth, meditate like your hair was on fire! This is a rare opportunity. The same urgency applies in both cases.

:namaste:


DarkDream
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby DarkDream » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:52 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:04 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkDream
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby DarkDream » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:07 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:13 pm

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cooran
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby cooran » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:38 pm

Hello DarkDream,

One needs to take the context and audience into account when looking at particular suttas, as well as the purpose of the Buddha in giving a particular teaching ... particularly before making statements about Buddhavacana like "I do not believe it was spoken by the Buddha".

I would be very interested to read any scholarly research which would support that remark about this particular sutta, together with links to where I can read it.

In this sutta on The Incontrovertible Teaching, the Buddha gives a group of Brahmin householders from Sālā who had met him before, (see MN 41 where they asked about causes for particular rebirths) an "incontrovertible teaching" that will help them steer clear of the tangle of contentious views and the Buddha explores some of the implications of different views.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:03 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:11 am


DarkDream
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby DarkDream » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:14 am


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:40 am

It seems to me the argument that we can't know what the Buddha actually taught is besides the point of asking what makes a Buddhist. A Buddhist practices the teachings of Buddhism - the teachings of the Buddha as they have come down to us. If you want to say "Maybe the Buddha didn't teach rebirth" then you are creating something new, something having nothing to do with any Buddhist tradition, something not Buddhism.

Fact is, you can say this "maybe" about any teaching you don't like. You like indulging in sensual pleasure? Maybe he didn't teach sensual pleasures as like or or .

Like to drink? Maybe he didn't teach abstinence from alcohol. Obviously that was stuck in by later (and uptight) monks.

Maybe he didn't teach liberation at all. Probably that was just made up too. Who knows? :shrug:
- Peter


DarkDream
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby DarkDream » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:55 am


DarkDream
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby DarkDream » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:31 am


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:34 am

Again, Peter made me chuckle! Please listen to him for goodness sakes.

It is as useful as you're willing to apply it. Whatever it is that you're doubting, rebirth, 8FP, liberation, etc.

If you've had the good fortune to have a dharma teacher, this is the kind of response you get with esoteric questions. You get pulled back to what you're doing right now, and directed towards what you can do right now. You usually don't get big mystical answers :clap:


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:46 am

I have read this thread (and endless other threads about rebirth) and I fail to see the hang-up.

We know that sentient beings arise. When you die, which you will, your aggregates will break up and "you" will cease to exist. "You" will be gone. Another being will arise. If you could have compassion for a stranger on the street, afflicted with dukkha, hunger, sickness, whatever, it is the same with "future self." It won't resemble you. It is a stranger. But if you can have compassion for that stranger on the street, have compassion for that future being that will arise with afflictions and a new set of clinging aggregates that you've helped to "create." This is why we attempt to create conditions that will benefit that future sentient.

If you doubt it, just go to the labor and delivery wing of your nearest hospital. Sentients are arising every moment. At some undetermined time you will die, lose your "self," entirely, including your thoughts, your desires, your attachments, etc. and be one of those helpless little human babies, or animals, or any number of things that suffers terribly.

Have compassion for that stranger. Create conditions.

/\


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:15 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:23 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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jcsuperstar
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:24 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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tiltbillings
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:16 am


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:07 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:02 pm

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