Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed May 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Greetings!

Thanks for Mike's very helpful link [http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=60]. After pondering over the relevant teachings, I came to the following tentative conclusion:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [consciousness non-manifesting] = cessation of consciousness = nibbana without residue [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling]

appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, (mind with) consciousness unestablished/nongenerative, not established upon name and form
= "immeasurable mind"/"unrestricted mind" ("mind without barriers"), pure mind devoid of defilements
= living arahant’s mind
= nibbana with residue


Here are the teachings on which I base my conclusion:

1. What is nibbana?

This is the peaceful; this is the sublime; that is, the stilling of all volitions/formations; the relinquishing of all basis for clinging [or all foundations (of existence)]; the ending of craving; dipassion; cessation; nibbana." [Nibbana is the unconditioned, the mind being devoid of incoming defilements and hence not being conditioned by the defilements anymore.]

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements.

These two Nibbana-elements were made known By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:

One is the element seen here and now With residue,
but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being."

-- § 44. The Nibbana-element {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}

2. "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" = "cessation of consciousness" = nibbana without residue:

DN 11:

‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti.

Consciousness non-manifesting (at the phase of cessation of perception and feeling, consciousness ceases), boundless (without barriers of defilements) or immeasurable (of lust/hate/delusion), unlimited/unrestricted (by defilements). Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end. [This is the phase of cessation of perception and feeling]

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:

Consciousness non-manifesting, without barriers (of defilements), unlimited (by defilements), does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas [and so on through a list of the various levels of godhood to] the allness of the All."

Udana – Inspiration: I - 10 which has similar phrases as DN11:
On realizing the importance of this incident the Blessed One exclaimed:
Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor motion find any footing,
there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light,
yet nor is there any darkness! When the Noble,
through stilling of all volitions, through quieting of all formations,
directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness,
then is he released from both pleasure and all pain ....

AN 10.81:
Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from stress... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind.

Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, and released from these ten things — dwells with unbound mind.

When the Buddha dwelled in the phase of cessation of perception and feeling, the five aggregates all temporarily “disappeared”, that's why he could be free from consciousness. And of course a liberated one is also free from the other five things as well. When the arahants dwell in the phase of cessation of perception and feeling, they are dwelling in nibbana without residue (the five aggregates).

3. Appatiṭṭha viññāṇa = mind with consciousness unestablished/nongenerative = "mind without barriers" ("immeasurable mind"/"unrestricted mind") = pure mind devoid of defilements = living arahant’s mind

SN 22.87:
That is Mara, the Evil One. He is searching for the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman: "Where is the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman established?" But, monks, it is through consciousness unestablished that Vakkali the clansman has become totally unbound.

How does consciousness become unestablished? It's through the abandonment of ignorance, delight/craving and attachment to name and form:

SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta (Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi):

"Bhikkhus, one who is engaged is unliberated; one who is disengaged is liberated. Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand engaged with form […]; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand [engaged with feeling..., engaged with perception...] engaged with volitional formations; based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase and expansion.

Bhikkhus, though someone might say: 'apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase and expansion'--that is impossible.

Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust, the basis is cut off, there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element...for the perception element...for the volitional formations element...for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off. There is no support for the establishing of consciousness.

When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbaana.
He understands: 'Destroyed is birth , the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'"

SN 12.64:
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of (karmic) volitions. Where there is no growth of (karmic) volitions, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

SN 35.202 Avassuta Sutta: Soggy

“ There is the case where a monk, when seeing a form via the eye, is not, in the case of pleasing forms, attached to forms nor, in the case of displeasing forms, afflicted by forms. He remains with body-mindfulness present, and with an immeasurable mind. And he discerns, as it actually is present, the mind-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen cease without trace.

[…]

“ And when a monk dwells in this way, he overpowers forms. Forms do not overpower him. He overpowers sounds... aromas... flavors... tactile sensations... thoughts. Thoughts do not overpower him. This is called a monk who overpowers forms, overpowers sounds, overpowers aromas, overpowers flavors, overpowers tactile sensations, overpowers thoughts — one who overpowers and is not overpowered. He overpowers evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, that are miserable, that result in suffering & stress, that tend toward future birth, aging, & death.”

MN38

"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a boundless mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of liking and disliking, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

MN43 Mahāvedalla Sutta:

35. “... Lust is a maker of measurement, hate is a maker of measurement, delusion is a maker of measurement. In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Of all the kinds of immeasurable* deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best. Now that unshakeable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion. [*Immeasurable by the three markers of measurement: lust, hate and delusion]

36. “Lust is a something, hate is a something, delusion is a something. In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Of all the kinds of deliverance of mind through nothingness, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best. Now that unshakeable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion.

37. “Lust is a maker of signs, hate is a maker of signs, delusion is a maker of signs. In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Of all the kinds of signless deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best. Now that unshakeable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion. This is the way in which these states are one in meaning and different only in name.”

4. Living arahant’s mind = nibbana (with residue)?

We know that the living arahants are in nibbana "with residue" [five aggregates]. But does an arahant's mind become annihilated upon his death? Judging from the following two suttas, I'd say it's not annihilated.

A. N. ii.47.Paharada Sutta:
"Just as in the great ocean neither a decrease nor an increase will appear though all the streams of the world flow into it and rains fall into it from the sky; even so in the Nibbana datu that is without a remainder of substrata of existence; there is no decrease nor increase even if many monks enter it. [-- because these monks don’t have any conditioned existence anymore, but rather the unconditioned].

MN 72:
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear? ... when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '... doesn't apply' in each case." ... "Deep, Vaccha, is this Dhamma [Nibbana], hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know." ...

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass & timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out'."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless (immeasurable, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication... Any consciousness ...

Please note: the "fire" burned out here refers to the release from the five aggregates [and defilements of course]. This sutta actually conveys the same meaning as the other cited suttas:

... then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Mind, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released.

... where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of volitions. Where there is no growth of volitions, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future...

Since the Buddha clearly indicated that "Freed from the classification of [the aggregate of consciousness], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."", the "mind" of an arahant doesn't appear to be annihilated at all, but rather it's the deathless, the unconditioned, nibbana.

Welcome your helpful input. Please read these suttas carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgment. Metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 11, 2011 5:20 pm

starter wrote:Hello Teachers/Friends,

Thanks for Mike's very helpful link [http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=60]. After pondering over the relevant teachings, I came to the following tentative conclusion:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [non-manifestive consciousness) = consciousness (is) non-indicative or non-manifestive or empty [of fabrications] = consciousness [is] ceased [no fabrications, no defilements] = unestablished consciousness (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa)= living arahant’s consciousness = nibbana.
Simply, consciousness that does not "establish" itself in term of greed, hatred, and delusion -- that is, it is a consciousness that does not establish itself by grasping after what reinforces a sense of self, by pushing away what threatens a sense of self, and by delusively thinking in terms of a self. No need to make this more complicated than it is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby kirk5a » Wed May 11, 2011 5:56 pm

Regarding the DN11 passage, It has occured to me whether "Viññāṇassa nirodhena" in the last line, is in fact just another expression for "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" in the first line. Whether they are in fact just synonyms, picking out different aspects. And where the confusion comes in is in this translation of "nirodha" as "cessation." What if "anidassanam" and "nirodhena" are both just descriptions for the very same thing?

I offer the following in support:

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising", and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarisea.htm
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Alex123 » Thu May 12, 2011 12:19 am

Unestablished consciousness is merely an exalted state of consciousness that is not established on greed, anger or delusion. It doesn't crave for anything.

This however should NOT imply as being something other than what belongs to Viññāṇa-khandha. And as Viññāṇa khandha, it will also cease. The DN11 is clear on that.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Kenshou » Thu May 12, 2011 1:08 am

kirk5a wrote:It has occured to me whether "Viññāṇassa nirodhena" in the last line, is in fact just another expression for "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" in the first line. Whether they are in fact just synonyms, picking out different aspects. And where the confusion comes in is in this translation of "nirodha" as "cessation." What if "anidassanam" and "nirodhena" are both just descriptions for the very same thing?

I believe that this would be relevant to that, and to this whole thread in general: http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana07.htm

No time to pick out quotes, but it's not really that much material.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby ground » Thu May 12, 2011 2:14 am

Contact ceasing, nama rupa ceases, consciousness ceases. No establishment.

Kind regards
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 12, 2011 7:07 am

Hi starter

I think it's worth reflecting that how "vinnanam anidassanam" (noun+predicates nexus or noun+adjective junction?) or the elusive "appatiṭṭha viññāṇa" (no such term in the Canon, but if it existed is it a verb formation or noun+adjective junction?) etc are translated or interpreted turns very much on whether (i) one follows the traditional 3 Lives model of DO, versus the One Life model, and (ii) one interprets Namarupa as an experiential category (ie equivalent to the 5 Aggregates, plus some) or as a functionalist one in terms of the types of contacts it yields.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Dmytro » Thu May 12, 2011 8:35 am

Hi,

Sylvester wrote:I think it's worth reflecting that how "vinnanam anidassanam" (noun+predicates nexus or noun+adjective junction?)


It's unlikely even to be a noun:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5618

so "non-manifestive consciousness" is just a popular modern interpretation.

or the elusive "appatiṭṭha viññāṇa" (no such term in the Canon, but if it existed is it a verb formation or noun+adjective junction?)


There is such a term in the Canon:

“ Yato ca kho, bhikkhave, no ceva ceteti no ca pakappeti no ca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ na hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā Ārammaṇe asati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti. Tadappatiṭṭhite viññāṇe avirūḷhe āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti na hoti. Āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbattiyā asati āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

‘‘Phasse ce, bhikkhave, āhāre… manosañcetanāya ce, bhikkhave, āhāre… viññāṇe ce, bhikkhave, āhāre natthi rāgo natthi nandī natthi taṇhā, appatiṭṭhitaṃ tattha viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ. Yattha appatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ, natthi tattha nāmarūpassa avakkanti. Yattha natthi nāmarūpassa avakkanti, natthi tattha saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi. Yattha natthi saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi, natthi tattha āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti. Yattha natthi āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti, natthi tattha āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ. Yattha natthi āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ asokaṃ taṃ, bhikkhave, adaraṃ anupāyāsanti vadāmī’’ti.

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

SN XXII.53 Upaya Sutta (Engagement), in the translation of Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi:

At Saavatthi:

Bhikkhus, one who is engaged is unliberated; one who is disengaged is liberated. Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand engaged with form; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand [engaged with feeling..., engaged with perception...] engaged with volitional formations; based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase and expansion.

Bhikkhus, though someone might say: 'apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase and expansion'--that is impossible.

Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust, the basis is cut off, there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element...for the perception element...for the volitional formations element...for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off. There is no support for the establishing of consciousness.

When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbaana. He understands: 'Destroyed is birth , the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'


Upayasuttaṃ

53. Sāvatthinidānaṃ. ‘‘Upayo [upāyo (bahūsu)], bhikkhave, avimutto, anupayo vimutto. Rūpupayaṃ vā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ tiṭṭhamānaṃ tiṭṭheyya, rūpārammaṇaṃ rūpappatiṭṭhaṃ nandūpasecanaṃ vuddhiṃ virūḷhiṃ vepullaṃ āpajjeyya. Vedanupayaṃ vā…pe… saññupayaṃ vā…pe… saṅkhārupayaṃ vā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ tiṭṭhamānaṃ tiṭṭheyya, saṅkhārārammaṇaṃ saṅkhārappatiṭṭhaṃ nandūpasecanaṃ vuddhiṃ virūḷhiṃ vepullaṃ āpajjeyya’’.

‘‘Yo, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadeyya – ‘ahamaññatra rūpā aññatra vedanāya aññatra saññāya aññatra saṅkhārehi viññāṇassa āgatiṃ vā gatiṃ vā cutiṃ vā upapattiṃ vā vuddhiṃ vā virūḷhiṃ vā vepullaṃ vā paññāpessāmī’ti, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

‘‘Rūpadhātuyā ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno rāgo pahīno hoti. Rāgassa pahānā vocchijjatārammaṇaṃ patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti. Vedanādhātuyā ce, bhikkhave… saññādhātuyā ce bhikkhave… saṅkhāradhātuyā ce bhikkhave… viññāṇadhātuyā ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno rāgo pahīno hoti. Rāgassa pahānā vocchijjatārammaṇaṃ patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti. Tadappatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ anabhisaṅkhaccavimuttaṃ. Vimuttattā ṭhitaṃ. Ṭhitattā santusitaṃ. Santusitattā na paritassati. Aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati. ‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī’’ti.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 12, 2011 8:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:Simply, consciousness that does not "establish" itself in term of greed, hatred, and delusion

Indeed, this is what is important.

All the best,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 12, 2011 9:02 am

Thank you, Dmytro. I can always count on you to furnish the text.

When I said that "appatiṭṭha viññāṇa" does not exist as a term in the Canon, I was referring to those variants of this term "designating" something that is an "unestablished consciousness". I believe there's been a fulsome discussion of whether those suttas you cited (+ SN 4.23) establish (i) an "unestablished consciousness" (per Ven Nanananda) or (ii) simply the phenomenon of consciousness not being established (per "classical" Theravada). There were canvassed previously at -

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8064&p=129246&hilit=unestablished#p129245
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8064&p=129210&hilit=edible#p129203
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7464&p=126920&hilit=+unestablished#p126920
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&p=126436&hilit=+unestablished#p126436
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7415&start=40#p118001

For me, I think the weight of the Canon tilts in favour of the classical interpretation.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 12, 2011 9:18 am

Sylvester wrote: I believe there's been a fulsome discussion of whether those suttas you cited (+ SN 4.23) establish (i) an "unestablished consciousness" (per Ven Nanananda) or (ii) simply the phenomenon of consciousness not being established (per "classical" Theravada).

Both expressions arrive at the same place: consciousness not being established in relation to passion, aggression, or delusion. It seems to me that what Ven. Ñāṇananda is getting at is that the object-basis of supramundane consciousness isn't some sort of "Unconditioned Realm" existing somewhere outside of time and space. Rather, it is a cognition which perceives the absence of specific fetters.

All the best,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 12, 2011 9:37 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sylvester wrote: I believe there's been a fulsome discussion of whether those suttas you cited (+ SN 4.23) establish (i) an "unestablished consciousness" (per Ven Nanananda) or (ii) simply the phenomenon of consciousness not being established (per "classical" Theravada).

Both expressions arrive at the same place: consciousness not being established in relation to passion, aggression, or delusion. It seems to me that what Ven. Ñāṇananda is getting at is that the object-basis of supramundane consciousness isn't some sort of "Unconditioned Realm" existing somewhere outside of time and space. Rather, it is a cognition which perceives the absence of specific fetters.
Such would be dictated by Occam's Razor.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 12, 2011 9:48 am

Except that the "ontic" consequences of either interpretation would differ.

For Ven Nanananda's interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa as he understands it to be naming and striking. A consciousness that is unestablished would "be" for the Arahant.

For the classical interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa's descent, which given DN 15's very literal "womb" reference would not lend itself to being a metaphor. This interpretation would lead to consciousness "not being" in the future.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 12, 2011 9:50 am

Sylvester wrote:Except that the "ontic" consequences of either interpretation would differ.

For Ven Nanananda's interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa as he understands it to be naming and striking. A consciousness that is unestablished would "be" for the Arahant.

For the classical interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa's descent, which given DN 15's very literal "womb" reference would not lend itself to being a metaphor. This interpretation would lead to consciousness "not being" in the future.
Do you think you and Geoff are that far apart in this? Or is it picking nits?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 12, 2011 10:04 am

Hi Tilt

I read the "establishment" as having a different temporal location, given my belief that the vinnana in the 2nd and 3rd nidanas refer to rebirth consciousness. I'm unable to make any statement at all about the living Arahant's consciousness in terms of "establishment", since I interpret that term strictly in the context of rebirth, and not in the context of freedom from the asavas. You might recall SN 12.38 where a distinction is drawn between (i) kamma and anusaya, versus (ii) establishment of consciousness.

What one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā. Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti. Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. Āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbattiyā sati āyatiṃ jāti jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.


In my view, "establishment" is the result of the kamma and anusaya (std 2nd Nidana), which is why I don't conflate them to say that a non-Arahant's consciousness is established in kamma, anusayas or asavas.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 12, 2011 10:11 am

Sylvester wrote: . . . .
Thanks. Let me think about this for a bit.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 12, 2011 10:38 am

Sylvester wrote:Except that the "ontic" consequences of either interpretation would differ.

For Ven Nanananda's interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa as he understands it to be naming and striking. A consciousness that is unestablished would "be" for the Arahant.

I can't speak for Ven. Ñāṇananda, but it seems to me that he is just borrowing a page from Nāgārjuna to demonstrate that nibbāna isn't an ultimately existing unconditioned realm (an idea that has gained currency in Theravāda circles).

There is a long history in Mahāyāna exegesis of pointing out the selflessness of phenomena (dharmanairātmya) and thereby describing consciousness as appatiṭṭha (Skt. apratiṣṭha) and anidassana (Skt. anidarśana). (Cf. Kāśyapaparivarta Sūtra, Sarvadharmāpravṛttinirdeśa Sūtra, Vimalakīrtinirdeśa Sūtra, Ratnagotravibhāga Śāstra, etc.. Also, Nāgārjuna quotes the passage from DN 11 in his Ratnāvalī.)

Similarly, Ven. Ñāṇananda describes supramundane consciousness as "seeing through the object" (i.e. realizing the essencelessness of concomitant mental phenomena). But where Ñāṇananda differs from Nāgārjuna, et al, is that Ñāṇananda explicitly rejects the possibility of any post-mortem continuum for an arahant.

All the best,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Dmytro » Thu May 12, 2011 3:40 pm

Thank you, Sylvester, your evidence is impressive.

What would you say about 'anissita'? In Mahasatipatthana sutta it is mentioned as a state in which one abides, and it's not unconsciousness:

“Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”

And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta:

"And how is a monk a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered? There is the case where a monk's conceit 'I am' is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [12]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno asmimāno pahīno hoti, ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṃkato , āyatiṃ anuppādadhammo. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto hoti.

Evaṃ vimuttacittaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuṃ saindā devā sabrahmakā sapajāpatikā anvesaṃ nādhigacchanti – ‘idaṃ nissitaṃ tathāgatassa viññāṇa’nti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Diṭṭhevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhamme tathāgataṃ ananuvijjoti vadāmi.

http://nikaya.wikidot.com/appatittha-vinnana

'Anissita' is very close to 'appatiṭṭha' in the sense of 'unsupported':

Nissita (adj.) [Sk. niśrita, pp. of nissayati, corresp. in meaning to Sk. āśrita] hanging on, dependent on, inhabiting; attached to, supported by, living by means of, relying on, being founded or rooted in, bent on. As -- ˚ often in sense of a prep.=by means of, on account of, through, esp. with pron. kiŋ˚ (=why, through what) Sn 458; taŋ˚ (therefore, on acct. of this) S iv.102. <-> For combn with var. synonyms see Nd2 s. v. & cp. Nd1 75, 106. -- S ii.17 (dvayaŋ; cp. iii.134); iv.59, 365; v.2 sq., 63 sq.; A iii.128; Dh 339 (rāga˚); Sn 752, 798, 910; J i.145; Nd1 283; Pv i.86 (sokaŋ hadaya˚ lying in); ii.66 (paṭhavi˚ supported by); Vbh 229; Nett 39 (˚citta); Miln 314 (inhabiting); PvA 86 (māna˚). -- anissita unsupported, not attached, free, emancipated Sn 66, 363, 753, 849, 1069 (unaided); J i.158; Miln 320, 351. -- Cp. apassita.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby starter » Thu May 12, 2011 8:01 pm

Hello, your very helpful input has been very appreciated.

"Ñāṇananda explicitly rejects the possibility of any post-mortem continuum for an arahant."

-- How did or would he explain the following suttas:

1) MN 22: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) is dependent on this [name and form].' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [See SN 22.85 and SN 22.86. Also, compare Dhp 92-93]."

-- The "unestablished consciousness" is untraceable by the beings in the worlds because it's impossible for the beings to reach/know such unconditioned, supramundane "consciousness", like the fish doesn't reach/know the land. This sentence "The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now" implies that the one truly gone is just untraceable by the beings both before or after his death, instead of becoming annihilated.

2) MN 72:
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear? ..."

"Freed from the classification of [the aggregate of consciousness], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."".

-- The Buddha was answering the question about the reappearance of an arahant after his death, and described the post-mortem continual of "the Tathagata" [the unestablished consciousness] : 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."", which are typical descriptions of the deathless or the unconditioned (that are beyond the descriptions of the conditioned terminology). Can the deathless/the unconditioned be annihilated upon an arahant's death? :thinking:

By the way, I found the following info in the link kindly provided by Dymtro [http://nikaya.wikidot.com/appatittha-vinnana] about appatiṭṭha Viññāṇa, Unestablished Consciousness:
"Appamāṇacetasa: Measureless Mind A distinction between the “limited mind” (parittacetasa) and the “measureless mind” (appamāṇacetasa) is found in a number of discourses (S iv 119, S iv 186, S iv 189, S iv 199, & MN 38: Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta)."

Thanks and metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Postby Alex123 » Thu May 12, 2011 9:03 pm

"Untraceable here and now" - IMHO it means that one cannot find that which an Arahant identifies himself with. Usually ordinary people have things they identify with, and have certain kinds of temperaments based on defilements. Buddha/Arhat cannot be identified as greedy, angry, deluded, or someone who can be manipulated in this or that way.

I don't think that "Untraceable here and now" means that an Arahant wears some sort of stealth-cloak that makes him visually invisible.

As for MN72, it is clear. Arahant cannot be found after death, just as an extinguished flame doesn't go anywhere when it is extinguished. It is simply reckoned as 'out'. An Arahant isn't even found as an Existing Being in-itself, so the final cessation is just a cessation of essence-less process.


With metta,

Alex
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