Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote: . . . .
Thanks. Let me think about this for a bit.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Except that the "ontic" consequences of either interpretation would differ.

For Ven Nanananda's interpretation, the "establishment" is on Namarupa as he understands it to be naming and striking. A consciousness that is unestablished would "be" for the Arahant.
I can't speak for Ven. Ñāṇananda, but it seems to me that he is just borrowing a page from Nāgārjuna to demonstrate that nibbāna isn't an ultimately existing unconditioned realm (an idea that has gained currency in Theravāda circles).

There is a long history in Mahāyāna exegesis of pointing out the selflessness of phenomena (dharmanairātmya) and thereby describing consciousness as appatiṭṭha (Skt. apratiṣṭha) and anidassana (Skt. anidarśana). (Cf. Kāśyapaparivarta Sūtra, Sarvadharmāpravṛttinirdeśa Sūtra, Vimalakīrtinirdeśa Sūtra, Ratnagotravibhāga Śāstra, etc.. Also, Nāgārjuna quotes the passage from DN 11 in his Ratnāvalī.)

Similarly, Ven. Ñāṇananda describes supramundane consciousness as "seeing through the object" (i.e. realizing the essencelessness of concomitant mental phenomena). But where Ñāṇananda differs from Nāgārjuna, et al, is that Ñāṇananda explicitly rejects the possibility of any post-mortem continuum for an arahant.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Assaji »

Thank you, Sylvester, your evidence is impressive.

What would you say about 'anissita'? In Mahasatipatthana sutta it is mentioned as a state in which one abides, and it's not unconsciousness:

“Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”

And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta:

"And how is a monk a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered? There is the case where a monk's conceit 'I am' is abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [12]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno asmimāno pahīno hoti, ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṃkato , āyatiṃ anuppādadhammo. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto hoti.

Evaṃ vimuttacittaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuṃ saindā devā sabrahmakā sapajāpatikā anvesaṃ nādhigacchanti – ‘idaṃ nissitaṃ tathāgatassa viññāṇa’nti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Diṭṭhevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhamme tathāgataṃ ananuvijjoti vadāmi.

http://nikaya.wikidot.com/appatittha-vinnana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Anissita' is very close to 'appatiṭṭha' in the sense of 'unsupported':

Nissita (adj.) [Sk. niśrita, pp. of nissayati, corresp. in meaning to Sk. āśrita] hanging on, dependent on, inhabiting; attached to, supported by, living by means of, relying on, being founded or rooted in, bent on. As -- ˚ often in sense of a prep.=by means of, on account of, through, esp. with pron. kiŋ˚ (=why, through what) Sn 458; taŋ˚ (therefore, on acct. of this) S iv.102. <-> For combn with var. synonyms see Nd2 s. v. & cp. Nd1 75, 106. -- S ii.17 (dvayaŋ; cp. iii.134); iv.59, 365; v.2 sq., 63 sq.; A iii.128; Dh 339 (rāga˚); Sn 752, 798, 910; J i.145; Nd1 283; Pv i.86 (sokaŋ hadaya˚ lying in); ii.66 (paṭhavi˚ supported by); Vbh 229; Nett 39 (˚citta); Miln 314 (inhabiting); PvA 86 (māna˚). -- anissita unsupported, not attached, free, emancipated Sn 66, 363, 753, 849, 1069 (unaided); J i.158; Miln 320, 351. -- Cp. apassita.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hello, your very helpful input has been very appreciated.

"Ñāṇananda explicitly rejects the possibility of any post-mortem continuum for an arahant."

-- How did or would he explain the following suttas:

1) MN 22: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... .than.html
"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) is dependent on this [name and form].' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [See SN 22.85 and SN 22.86. Also, compare Dhp 92-93]."

-- The "unestablished consciousness" is untraceable by the beings in the worlds because it's impossible for the beings to reach/know such unconditioned, supramundane "consciousness", like the fish doesn't reach/know the land. This sentence "The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now" implies that the one truly gone is just untraceable by the beings both before or after his death, instead of becoming annihilated.

2) MN 72:
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear? ..."

"Freed from the classification of [the aggregate of consciousness], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."".

-- The Buddha was answering the question about the reappearance of an arahant after his death, and described the post-mortem continual of "the Tathagata" [the unestablished consciousness] : 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."", which are typical descriptions of the deathless or the unconditioned (that are beyond the descriptions of the conditioned terminology). Can the deathless/the unconditioned be annihilated upon an arahant's death? :thinking:

By the way, I found the following info in the link kindly provided by Dymtro [http://nikaya.wikidot.com/appatittha-vinnana] about appatiṭṭha Viññāṇa, Unestablished Consciousness:
"Appamāṇacetasa: Measureless Mind A distinction between the “limited mind” (parittacetasa) and the “measureless mind” (appamāṇacetasa) is found in a number of discourses (S iv 119, S iv 186, S iv 189, S iv 199, & MN 38: Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta)."

Thanks and metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Alex123 »

"Untraceable here and now" - IMHO it means that one cannot find that which an Arahant identifies himself with. Usually ordinary people have things they identify with, and have certain kinds of temperaments based on defilements. Buddha/Arhat cannot be identified as greedy, angry, deluded, or someone who can be manipulated in this or that way.

I don't think that "Untraceable here and now" means that an Arahant wears some sort of stealth-cloak that makes him visually invisible.

As for MN72, it is clear. Arahant cannot be found after death, just as an extinguished flame doesn't go anywhere when it is extinguished. It is simply reckoned as 'out'. An Arahant isn't even found as an Existing Being in-itself, so the final cessation is just a cessation of essence-less process.


With metta,

Alex
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Nyana »

starter wrote:"Ñāṇananda explicitly rejects the possibility of any post-mortem continuum for an arahant."

-- How did or would he explain the following suttas:
If you're interested then you can read what he has to say in detail here: The Mind Stilled: 33 Sermons on Nibbāna.

IMO any speculation regarding the postmortem status of an arahant -- either pro or con -- is counterproductive. MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta informs us that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an arahant is a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana) which doesn't lead to direct gnosis, to awakening, to nibbāna:
  • The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.
When the mind is completely awake and fully aware there is no urge to project or speculate about a hypothetical future. An arahant has realized that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to be grasped at or clung to. And when the moment of death arrives he or she meets it with consciousness not established (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa).

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Dmytro

You have a point. "'Anissita" does look conceptually similar to "appatiṭṭha", in the sense both import some sort of "support". But I think there might be a tiny difference.

Nissita, as far as I can tell, describes a sort of causal relationship between clinging and the Aggregates that leads to sakkayaditthi. On the other hand, appatiṭṭha always seems to be used only for vinnana and namarupa. I'm largely guided by DN 15 and the suttas I've cited to understand that "establishment" of consciousness is IN namarupa, where namarupa is given its literal sense of a foetus from DN 15.

If one looks at SN 4.23, the question on "establishment" was couched in terms of "where" (kattha), while in DN 15, establishment is in terms of "nāmarūpe" (locative of nāmarūpa). This locative sense to "patiṭṭha" lends it a rather different flavour from nissita, in my view, and probably explains why these words occur in specialised contexts.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by rowyourboat »

Q: what happens to the arahanth or thatagata at death?

A: ok dude, there's no such thing ...kind of. What you are mistakenly taking to be a person, is actually a bunch of impersonal delineated mechanistic bunch of aggregates being destroyed moment by moment. Their final cessation is hardly anything to cry over, in fact it should be celebrated, because it is nothing but suffering!

Q: I still don't get it, can you explain?

A: Shut up and practice. Don't take anything as existing. Don't think anything is of value or desirable. You'll get there, trust me! :thumbsup: oh, and what you need to do is the 8 practices of the noble eightfold path. :meditate:

Seriously, I'm begining to think the hassle over 'do I exist, don't I exist' is not worth it. You will see it for yourself when vipassana gets in gear.
:namaste:

With metta

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by starter »

1) "... the hassle over 'do I exist, don't I exist' is not worth it."

-- This is not the hassle over 'do I exist, don't I exist' . Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned. This is the "hassle" to clarify whether or not nibbana is the annihilation of the awareness or (unestablished) consciousness, to avoid the wrong view and wrong practice of regarding the annihilation of awareness as nibbana. Would it be due to 1) the confusion of the Buddha's teachings on the conditioned (the all) with those on the unconditioned (nibbana), and 2) the misinterpretation of "not to have a fetter of views [regarding the conditioned as nibbana]" into "not having any views/understandings regarding nibbana (the unconditioned)", which has led to such wrong view and wrong practice of regarding "pitch-black emptiness" as nibbana and this kind of experience as supramundane fruitions?

2) Should we have a view (right view) about nibbnana at all?

"MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta informs us that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an arahant is a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana) which doesn't lead to direct gnosis, to awakening, to nibbāna:

The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna."

-- Please note these four views are only about "existence"/"non-existence" (which apply only to the conditioned phenomena), which don't apply to nibbana at all. Then of course, these views are not right views about nibbana, and are called "a thicket of views, ...". "Post-mortem continuum for an arahant" is not the continuum of any conditioned phenomena [ "existence"/"non-existence"], but the unconditioned, nibbana. Yes, nibbana is beyong our experience and description. We should not speculate about nibbana. But we should understand what nibbana is/isn't, and what we are discussing here is merely about what nibbana is/isn't. Yes, we should not conceive nibbana. But we are NOT trying to identify the unconditioned as "I", "mine", or 'do I exist, don't I exist', which don't apply to the unconditioned at all.

Actually the Buddha, to my knowledge, explained nibbana to us in many suttas. In MN 1, he clearly defined the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as one who has not known nibbana, and instead he defined the trainee (the noble disciples) as one who directly knows nibbana, but yet to comprehend it without conceit:

[The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person ...]
He perceives Nibbana as Nibbana. Perceiving Nibbana as Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana, he conceives [“I am”] in Nibbana, he conceives [“I am”] apart from Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana as 'mine,' he delights in Nibbana. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. [Please note even for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, the Buddha didn't say he should not perceive nibbana, but only he shouldn't conceive nibbana and he should try to know and comprehend nibbana].

The Trainee ...
He directly knows Nibbana as Nibbana. Directly knowing Nibbana as Nibbana, let him not conceive Nibbana, let him not conceive [“I am”] in Nibbana, let him not conceive [“I am”] apart from Nibbana, let him not conceive Nibbana as 'mine,' let him not delight in Nibbana. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you.

I'm afraid without the knowing of nibbana one can't enter the stream, and without the complete comprehension of nibbana one can't become an arahant. By the way, the Buddha didn't include nibbana in the four unconjecturables:

The Buddha-range of the Buddhas … The jhana-range of a person in jhana…. The (precise working out of the) results of kamma…. Conjecture about (the origin, etc., of) the world…"
-- Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 (Acintita Sutta)

3) "oh, and what you need to do is the 8 practices of the noble eightfold path".
-- Indeed, the first and most important step is: RIGHT VIEW about the 4NT including the 3rd NT -- nibbana.

We can (and are allowed to) have different views but we should never be absolutely sure only my view is correct and all the others' views are wrong/ worthless, especially when the others' view/point hasn't really been correctly grasped and when we are not yet (fully) enlightened. I always alert myself that these views I tend to hold as "mine" and as the truth (when I forget about defilements) might be actually caused by incoming defilements, and I'm not yet devoid of the defilements to be able to see the real truth without bias. I also alert myself that I probably haven't gotten a complete, unbiased comprehension of the Buddha's teachings concerning e.g. nibbana ...

But all the input and kind effort to help has genuinely been appreciated. Metta to all,

Starter :anjali:
Last edited by starter on Fri May 13, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by tiltbillings »

starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.
You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.
You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."
I don't think that necessarily follows from what starter has said. Do you perceive starter is reifying "the unconditioned"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.
You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."
I don't think that necessarily follows from what starter has said. Do you perceive starter is reifying "the unconditioned"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Well, the expression "the unconditioned" is, at best clumsy, and tends to be misleading, as if there were some thing existing out there that is "the unconditioned" or "the unborn" or "the deathless."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hello Teachers/Friends,

I came across DN 15 today and found the following teaching relevant to our discussion here. Just to share with you.

DN 15:

"If anyone were to say with regard to a monk whose mind is thus released that 'The Tathagata exists after death' is his view, that would be mistaken;
that 'The Tathagata does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is his view, that would be mistaken.

Why? Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released [from that -- all the conditioned phenomena].

["If anyone were to say that] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know' is his view,' that would be mistaken.
-- Unlike the four earlier views, which are wrongly attributed to the released one because they don’t apply to the unconditioned, this fifth view might lead to the supposition that the released does not see, does not know in nibbana due to the annihilation of consciousness; however, having directly known his release indicates such an nihilistic view is wrong as well. The description of what he comes to know in the course of gaining release shows that this supposition is inappropriate. He does know, he does see, but what he knows and sees is the unconditioned which is beyond mundane experience.

I was also pondering about birth and death this morning. To my understanding, so called birth and death concern only the association and disassociation of vinnana with nama and rupa, or the arising and passing away of the five aggregates (all are the conditioned phenomena). Birth and death cannot concern the unconditioned at all.

By the way, please don't be afraid to point out my mistakes if you notice any wrong views or inappropriate speech/actions from me, big or small. Your kind help would always be appreciated.

Thanks and metta,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by starter »

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements.

These two Nibbana-elements were made known By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:

One is the element seen here and now With residue,
but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.


Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being."

-- § 44. The Nibbana-element {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}

"When I had learnt of the undying state (nibbana), the unconditioned, through the instruction of the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I was highly and well restrained in the precepts and established in the Dhamma taught by the most excellent of men, the Awakened One." ... When I knew the undefiled, the unconditioned, taught by the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I then and there experienced the calm concentration (of the noble path). That supreme certainty of release was mine." -- Sirima: Sirima's Mansion [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html]

Metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi

I just wanted to say that comprehending what nibbana is useful, to avoid what it is not. But it is not helpful in the sense that we can drive ourselves there if we know what it is. The manifestation of the unconditioned happens when it wants to- all we can do, as the simile suggests, is to sit on the egg until it cracks on it's own. All we can do is to give rise to moments of experience filled with faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and insight. Attainment must happen on it's own.

With insight, hacking away at avijja, the nirodha (cessation) aspect of the DO starts. Aggregates start fading from the mind. Then at one point the mind is fully released. It knows subsequently that it was released. The four noble truths (having realised nibbana, being certain of the path to get there) is fully experientially penetratively understood in a single moment (almost.. metaphorically speaking).
Bhikkhus, who is the person with a mind comparable to lightning? Bhikkhus, a certain person knows, as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is its cessation and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness. Just as a man would see forms in pitch darkness when there is lightning. In the same manner a certain person knows as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is why the second of the four noble truths is the D-origination and the third on is D-cessation. Removing craving for the aggregates, at it's deepest, is synonymous with it fading from 'sight' experientially.
"Monks, that dimension should be known where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That dimension should be known where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be known."

— SN 35.117
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With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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