Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Viscid »

Just wanna point out that it seems as though Sujato reads this forum and wrote a response to this thread:

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/ ... e2%80%99t/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: Oops, looks like Sujato's blog post wasn't inspired by this thread; just coincidence that he made that post two days after this thread was made.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Viscid, Thanks for pointing that out.
Viscid wrote:Just wanna point out that it seems as though Sujato reads this forum and wrote a response to this thread:

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/ ... e2%80%99t/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: Oops, looks like Sujato's blog post wasn't inspired by this thread; just coincidence that he made that post two days after this thread was made.
Here's a continuation of the discussion.
http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/ ... E1%B9%87a/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gombrich's comment that I reproduced here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p119080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is perhaps relevant to the discussion of SN 1.27.

:anjali:
Mike
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

As Ajahn Sujato notes, the word "sara" was simply transliterated into its Chinese homophones (薩羅), instead of being translated. Perhaps this hesitation to render the meaning is evidence to back-up Gombrich's thesis that "sara" might have been understood to mean "word" instead of "stream", and the translator decided to be ambiguous.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=unestablished consciousness=nibbana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Sylvester, that's an interesting observation. I didn't have time to study Ven Sujato's essays in great detail so I appreciate the explanation!

:anjali:
Mike
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hi thanks for all your input!

I'd like to share with you my new understanding of this topic.

First let's look at MN 111:
"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
-- this "seeing with (supramundane) wisdom" occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling is not through mind consciousness [which is inseparable from perception and feeling] and is beyond the aggregates.

Indeed this transcendental awareness of the arahants (when dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not consciousness or the aggregate of consciousness. At first I was a bit confused by the consciousness in DO [so called "stream of consciousness"], which is separated from nama and rupa. Recently I realized that the defiled mind in samsara is no longer the "calm water" but the "stormy water", which appears as consciousness. As long as still in samsara, when the defiled mind/consciousness has separated from one set of aggregates upon one death in one realm, with more or less defilements it will successively gain another set of aggregates in the same or different realm. And the defiled mind/consciousness is always changing in samsara so the Buddha taught us it's not the same consciousness. Only when the mind becomes liberated from the defilements, it'll no longer generate consciousness (the consciousness will no longer be established) and become the "calm water" without waves. The translation of "unestablished consciousness" of the dead arahants is misleading to me. It's probably better to be translated as "with consciousness not established" .

Metta to all,

Starter
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by tiltbillings »

So, there is an atman/atta after all.
starter wrote:Hi thanks for all your input!

I'd like to share with you my new understanding of this topic.

First let's look at MN 111:
"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.
-- this "seeing with (supramundane) wisdom" occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling is not through mind consciousness [which is inseparable from perception and feeling] and is beyond the aggregates.

Indeed this transcendental awareness of the arahants (when dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not consciousness or the aggregate of consciousness. At first I was a bit confused by the consciousness in DO [so called "stream of consciousness"], which is separated from nama and rupa. Recently I realized that the defiled mind in samsara is no longer the "calm water" but the "stormy water", which appears as consciousness. As long as still in samsara, when the defiled mind/consciousness has separated from one set of aggregates upon one death in one realm, with more or less defilements it will successively gain another set of aggregates in the same or different realm. And the defiled mind/consciousness is always changing in samsara so the Buddha taught us it's not the same consciousness. Only when the mind becomes liberated from the defilements, it'll no longer generate consciousness (the consciousness will no longer be established) and become the "calm water" without waves. The translation of "unestablished consciousness" of the dead arahants is misleading to me. It's probably better to be translated as "with consciousness not established" .

Metta to all,

Starter
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hi I've explained no view/sense of self vs. no self here:

What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show? [http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9409]

I'd like to end my participation in the discussion about "self" or "atman". Metta to all!

Starter
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2707
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by Zom »

Ven. Thanissaro continues his battle for eternal consciousness :rolleye:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#fn-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Indeed, Zom,

See Sylvester's comments here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p153428" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by starter »

Dear Friends,

I'd like to share with you my new understanding of the transcendental, unrestricted awareness mentioned in AN 10.7, MN111 and AN 10.81:

AN 10.7
PTS: A v 8
Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2012

Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

As I understand from this sutta, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained here is the highest attainment "the cessation of perception and feeling", since all the other possible types of formless concentration (including neither perception nor feeling) are excluded. What ceased in this attainment is only the cessation of perception of five aggregates; as this mundane perception ceases, another transcendental perception arises during the concentration, which is the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding', nibbana. Therefore, it appears to me that in MN 111 "And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom" occurs during (not after) the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, which is probably also the "unrestricted awareness" that the Buddha described in the following sutta:

AN 10.81:
"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?"

Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from volitions... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the aggregate consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness.

Metta to all,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2707
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by Zom »

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness.
Why not to tell then that there is also another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn body, feeling, perception, formations ...? :tongue:
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by starter »

To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.

The following suttas might be of help to understand "the unborn, ...", but please read these suttas (also the ones I cited before) carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgments:

"... There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", ... "escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned" (Ud8:3/80).

"... the unborn, unaging, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage" (MN 26.18).

"... the supreme foundation of truth, whose nature is undeceptive and which ranks as the supreme noble truth" (MN 140.26)

33 synonyms for Nibbana (SN 43.1-44):
1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The secure
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. The passionless
26. The Pure
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The ultimate (The destination and the path leading to the destination)

I hope these teachings won't be regarded as those of Hindhu's about Atman. As I understand, Hindu's teachings only refer to the conditioned phenomena within the five aggregates as eternal "self" because they cannot see the unconditioned. Actually the Buddha taught us that nibbana is causeless, timeless and imperishable. Of course it doesn't mean that we should take it as "self". Nibbana is NOT "I", "mine". The sense of "self" is the result of the "magic show" of mind consciousness. It appears to me that the Buddha didn't teach we should hold the view that we have no self, but rather, he teaches us to remove any view of self:

“View the world, … as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about self [e.g. "I have a self" or "I have no self"]. This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.” — Sn 5.15

Metta to all,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2707
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by Zom »

To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.
According to Theravada, your understanding is incorrect. There is no such thing as "transcendental perception". All kinds of perception are constructed and impermanent. But - perception can have different objects to perceive. For example, this can be mundane object - or nibbana, which is not mundane.

There is a number of suttas where Buddha directly says that there is no any kind of perception or consciousness that would not be impermanent. If there were - he would say about that.
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibba

Post by starter »

Hi, thanks for your input and help to all my threads!

Here is another question:

sabba-saṅkhāra-samatha: stilling of all mental constructions, or stilling of all volitions / conditioned formations?

"This is the peaceful; this is the sublime; that is, the stilling of all (karmic) volitions (for living arahants, nibbana with residue) or all (conditioned) formations (for arahants at death, nibbana without residue); the relinquishing of all foundations (of existence – volition as the basis for the stationing and establishment of consciousness SN12.40?); the ending of craving; dipassion; cessation; nibbana"

It appears to me that the understanding of Nibbana as “the stilling of all mental constructions” could be misleading, which could lead to the practice of “emptiness” (of mental constructions) or “the sound of silence” as the goal of the path. When we contemplate Nibbana, it's important to know what to contemplate.

To my understanding, the third Noble truth should be the relinquishing of craving as taught in SN 56.11, not the stilling of all mental constructions, or not even the stilling of all volitions (we still need wholesome volitions to practice the Buddha’s path). The stilling of all volitions or conditioned formations (nibbana) is the fruit of the relinquishing of craving. The correct understanding of Nibbana is necessary in order to have the right goal of the path.

SN56.11:

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering, not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve (and right thoughts), right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by Mr Man »

starter wrote: which could lead to the practice of “emptiness” (of mental constructions) or “the sound of silence” as the goal of the path.

How could the practice of "emptiness" or “the sound of silence” be taken as the goal of the path?
Post Reply