Depression

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BlackBird
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Re: Depression

Post by BlackBird »

manasikara wrote:I'm glad to find this thread. I wish to add my name to the list of those for whom the morning sit in meditation (or standing, walking etc) is a support for tackling the rest of the day's challenges.

As for whether I can claim to be truly following the Dhamma or not, since my mind is regularly afflicted by depression, well i'm not the one to judge that. Honestly, though, my mind is far better at coping with the stresses of life than before Dhamma practice, so it's definitely helped me alot. Plus I'm one of the few adults in my circle of friends, family and acquaintances who are trying to keep the five precepts. I know plenty of hardworking, socially functional individuals who are not depressed like me, but who drink alcohol or smoke pot to unwind at the end of a day. So, I guess they have their delusion, and I have mine (identification with habitual negative thought patterns and emotional states).
Being affected by depression does not make you less of a Dhamma practitioner. I think this is one of those cases where the saying: "What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger" is very applicable.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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suguno
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Re: Depression

Post by suguno »

greggorious wrote:I've been diagnosed as suffering from major depression for over 12 years, I've been various medications during this time but still feel as though I'm getting nowhere with gaining emotional well being.
Is there a Buddhist interpretation of what depression is? Am I paying the price for negative karma in a past life? Also are there any views on anti depressants in Buddhism?

Greg
I have seen a couple people with depression manage to use meditation as an aid, and eventually overcome their problems without having to rely on psychoactive drugs. In these people cases, they all practice under rather close instructions of a very good and skillful teacher and this is not an easy to have condition.

Generally speaking, Buddhists believe this has something to do with forgotton past memories, most often from past lives. Scientific studies indicate that many of these cases are at least partially due to genetic factors, so it is not unreasonable to think that it is ‘possibly’ due to past lives.

However, from the practising standpoint, no matter how strong theoretical references are, unless we have developed meditation to a rather advance stage that enables us to discern past kammas directly, we still cannot know anything for certain, whatever we believe remain a hypothesis.

About the use of anti-depressants, from the Dhamma standpoint many biological factors are indeed due to the mind (psychological) and can be fixed by simply dealing with the mind. But in my own observation the success of this requires a really good teacher and a student who is able to grasp the teaching and practise it correctly. Medical treatment is not the ‘holistic approach’ but it’s often a quick fix, at least it is necessary when someone starts to manifest harmful behaviour.

But I would seek psychotherapist opinions as an alternative or as least as a supplement (to psychiatrist advices). The side effects of psychoactive drugs are quite well known, many of those who suffer from mental problems know from their very own experiences drugs do not really help them much, but they cannot skip it. There are some natural sources of serotonin and endorphins, which are cheap (or even free of charge) and I believe that many psychotherapists would recommend them. Among many, there are:
- meditation
- smile
- sunlight
- herbal supplement (e.g. St John’s Wort)
- strenuous exercises
- acupuncture
- carbohydrate rich meals
- chocolate with high percentage of Cocoa
- spicy foods

Of course if one is under medical prescription, consult the psychiatrist first. But at leastI think meditation (as well as other religious practices) and many on the lists can be used as supplements.

I sincerely hope that you will be well and ease.
rowyourboat
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Re: Depression

Post by rowyourboat »

It struck me that some forms of psychotherapy are 'unethical' from a Buddhist perspective because they encourage the expression and growth of defilements. However modern approaches like CBT are much more compatible with mindfulness based approaches. I believe at the end of the day (no judgement here), that depression is plain suffering - the cause of that suffering is a deep seated attachment to the way things should have been (and never was). It is an attachment to love and affection never received. These are quite deeply buried and takes quite refined mindfulness and the removal of many gross defilements (these make depression worse) to uncover. I suppose the four noble truths formula can be applies to curing depression.

With metta

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manas
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Re: Depression

Post by manas »

BlackBird wrote:Being affected by depression does not make you less of a Dhamma practitioner. I think this is one of those cases where the saying: "What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger" is very applicable.
Thanks, Blackbird. I'm also finding that having a difficult mind to deal with is a good opportunity for developing some good qualities (ironic, in a way): patience (with this challenging mind), acceptance / loving-kindness towards this mind (ie not judging it too harshly for being the way it is), and even a degree of insight, I'd say, when I realize that something that changes so many times in a single day couldn't possibly be self (eg, 'I am sad'...'I feel grief'...or on a really bad day, 'I feel despair'...then later on, if meditation goes well, or the people around me are being kind and harmonious, 'what happiness, what peace'...wait a minute there! Just recently you felt despair - now joy - which one of these is self? Which one is 'yours', something that can be owned? The answer is, none of them; they are all (equally) just guests, just passing through this mind). Yet despite having this (intellectual) understanding, still there is a kind of emotional attachment to feelings as self or 'mine', to emotions as self or 'mine', which causes suffering to arise...ha well we will get there eventually. May you be well and happy; may we all practice just to the best of our ability, that's all. :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
PeterB
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Re: Depression

Post by PeterB »

TMingyur wrote:
greggorious wrote:Is there a Buddhist interpretation of what depression is? Am I paying the price for negative karma in a past life? Also are there any views on anti depressants in Buddhism?
I would be very cautious with interpreting depression from a buddhist perspective because there are many different clinical forms of "depression". Some being more "rooted" in the body and some more rooted in "mentality". But since there is a cause for everything it may be the manifestation of karma regardless of clinical form.
If practice is made possible through anti depressants then these should be concomitantly applied initially until they can be abandoned which should be the effect of practice.


Kind regards
This post raises some important points and does so well.
We should be cautious in ascribing exclusively physical or " mental " causes to depressive or bipolar conditions.
That there is a genetic predisposition is now established pretty conclusively and includes Twin Studies to preclude a view posited solely on conditioning.
The challenge in managing such conditions from a Buddhist perspective lies in calculating the precise timing of a gradual withdrawl of meds in tandem with an increase in meditation practices.
This is tricky. And the input of an experienced meditatation teacher is highly advisiable.
Jhana4
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Re: Depression

Post by Jhana4 »

greggorious wrote:I've been diagnosed as suffering from major depression for over 12 years, I've been various medications during this time but still feel as though I'm getting nowhere with gaining emotional well being.
Is there a Buddhist interpretation of what depression is? Am I paying the price for negative karma in a past life? Also are there any views on anti depressants in Buddhism?

Greg
The late Dr. Albert Ellis invented REBT ( Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy) which later changed and became Cognitive therapy. Some people think it is more effective than cognitive therapy. The best book on the subject is the latest edition of Dr. Ellis' "Guide To Rational Living". You can read an excellent overview and introduction to his system here.

Meditation helps, as other people in this thread have stated, but I've also seen articles from the research community that seem to indicate this. *Vigorous* aerobic exercise also has a good reputation for helping depression. Also good nutrition, particularly getting a lot of b-vitamins.

Try out everything under the sun until you find something that works for you. No reason you can't see a therapist and meditate as well.

Good Luck
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
santa100
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Re: Depression

Post by santa100 »

Yes, outdoor aerobic exercises would definitely help. Jogging, biking, hiking, or brisk walking are all good. If you've never done them before, make sure to start out slowly and gradually build up the speed and duration. Eventually if you could maintain 1hr-jogging 3 times a week, that'd be great. Good luck..
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Depression

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

cooran wrote:Westerner are particularly afflicted with unrecognised self-devaluing. It is often the fact that many weeks/months of Metta practice, targeting oneself, are needed to adjust this. It is not 'selfish' to direct lovingkindness practice towards yourself.

Very good point, and IMO it could take many years of metta practice. One of the problems with depression can be the tendency to be self-critical about being depressed, something which the first stage of metta practice can address directly.

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Depression

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

BlackBird wrote: Being affected by depression does not make you less of a Dhamma practitioner.
Absolutely. And depression provides a very direct experience of what mental suffering really is.

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Depression

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

suguno wrote:- spicy foods
A nice curry always cheers me up. ;)

Spiny
Pacific
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Re: Depression

Post by Pacific »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
suguno wrote:- spicy foods
A nice curry always cheers me up. ;)

Spiny
yeah, it does me too. Seems many here have depression of one kind or another. I've had depression since my late teens although it's under control these days, pretty much. I find regular meditation, mindfulness, herbal supplements (St john's wort, fish oil - I was on zoloft for many years), exercise, being creative and trying to enjoy the simple things in life help a lot. small pleasures are nice.
One thing i would like to say though, is that unless you've had serious depression it's very, very difficult to understand somebody who has it. perhaps it's one of the reasons depression wasn't taken seriously until relatively recently... people just couldn't understand what the "problem" was
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retrofuturist
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Re: Depression

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I'm inclined to think that living in accordance with the following sutta, would help stave off depression... and just to add a personal touch, I've coloured red some of the ones I've struggled with of late.

Sn 2.4: Maha Mangala Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soni.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus have I heard:

Once while the Blessed One was staying in the vicinity of Saavatthi, in the Jeta Grove, in Anaathapi.n.dika's monastery, a certain deity, whose surpassing brilliance and beauty illumined the entire Jeta Grove, late one night came to the presence of the Blessed One; having come to him and offered profound salutations he stood on one side and spoke to him reverently in the following verse:

Many deities and human beings
Have pondered what are blessings,
Which they hope will bring them safety:
Declare to them, Sir, the Highest Blessing.

(To this the Blessed One replied):
With fools no company keeping.
With the wise ever consorting,
To the worthy homage paying:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Congenial place to dwell,
In the past merits making,
One's self directed well:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Ample learning, in crafts ability,
With a well-trained disciplining,
Well-spoken words, civility:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Mother, father well supporting,
Wife and children duly cherishing,
Types of work unconflicting:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Acts of giving, righteous living,
Relatives and kin supporting,
Actions blameless then pursuing:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Avoiding evil and abstaining,
From besotting drinks refraining,
Diligence in Dhamma doing:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Right reverence and humility
Contentment and a grateful bearing,
Hearing Dhamma when it's timely:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Patience, meekness when corrected,
Seeing monks and then discussing
About the Dhamma when it's timely:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Self-restraint and holy life,
All the Noble Truths in-seeing,
Realization of Nibbaana:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Though touched by worldly circumstances,
Never his mind is wavering,
Sorrowless, stainless and secure:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Since by acting in this way,
They are everywhere unvanquished,
And everywhere they go in safety:
Theirs, the Highest Blessings.
Here ends the Discourse on Blessings.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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cooran
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Re: Depression

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Hope this might clarify just what depression really is, and how to affect change:

What is Depression?
• Depression is not simply normal sadness, being moody or just a low mood, but a serious illness. It causes both physical and psychological symptoms.
• Depression is common. Up to one in four females and one in six males will experience depression in their lifetime.
• Depression is the leading cause of suicide.
• Depression is often not recognised or treated.
• Current treatments for depression are safe and effective.
• Depression also commonly occurs with specific anxiety syndromes.
Are you depressed?
Complete the checklist below to see if you are possibly suffering from a depressive illness. Please note, we keep no record of your test results or identity.
…………………
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx ... pgodxDoO7g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Ben
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Re: Depression

Post by Ben »

Good one, Chris!

I also want to say that in my observation, some practitioners will find benefit from Paul's approach or by engaging with Dhamma practice. But for many other practitioners their condition may indeed be so acute as to require medical and therapeutic intervention. If anyone is suffering from depression, I think, the best thing to do is to get it checked out by a medical professional. Very many practitioners benefit greatly from a combination of medical treatment alongside their Dhamma practice.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Depression

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

A good blog post on the subject of depression - http://www.ryanminster.com/life/depress ... dog-calls/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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