Essential Right View

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Essential Right View

Postby clw_uk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:47 am

Greetings everyone


There are currently two topics being discussed here that involved what a Buddhist should and should not have to accept in order to practice accordingly


Ive noticed that many discussions that involve topics of rebirth, kamma, interpretations of Suttas and generally what one has to accept (if anything) as a follower of the Buddha basicaly boils down to what Right View is, what view will function as part of the Noble Eightfold Path and what view (or lack of) will hold one back


I started this thread because i think if we discuss in depth what exactly Right View is then we will come to an understanding of what must be accepted and what can be left in the "dont know" box (or denied box) and so answer a lot of questions in reguards to what doctrines are essential and since Right View is essential as its the forerunner of the whole path and practice, i think coming to an understanding of what is/isnt Right View is important


Realised i probably should have started the other thread as discussing this but didnt think of how all these contentious issused acctualy revolve around what is and what isnt right view in the Noble Eight Fold Path


Metta

:anjali:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Ben
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:59 am

The Discourse on Right View
The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary
Translated from the Pali by
Bhikkhu Ñanamoli
Edited and Revised by
Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el377.html
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Cittasanto
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:02 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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mikenz66
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:04 am


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Ben
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:23 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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zavk
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby zavk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:02 am

With metta,
zavk

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Cittasanto
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:09 am

hi Ben,
the part I quoted I take to refer to what to do with views we meet, as aristotle says it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a view without accepting it.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby clw_uk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:38 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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mikenz66
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:42 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby clw_uk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:43 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Re: Essential Right View

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:10 pm


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zavk
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby zavk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:50 pm

Hi friends,

Mike's post reminded about something I read. I remember reading about the qualification sammā. Sammā is usually translated as 'right'. But I believe it also means 'togetherness' or 'to be connected in one' or something like that (Maybe someone more learned can elaborate on this). This suggests to me that sammā is not just simply about establishing what is 'right' as opposed to 'wrong'. Sammā ditthi is not simply about right or wrong view. Rather, sammā (as 'togetherness'; 'to be connected in one) points to the need to incorporate the development of view into the noble eightfold path. And as we all know, the path includes other factors like effort, action, and speech.

It seems to me, then, that Right View isn't just about epistemology (what is right or not, what can be known or not) but also about ontology (what one is) and ethics (what one ought to do). Questions about right/wrong and knowledge are important, but the answers to these questions are to be discovered not simply in discourse but in what we do, the way we behave, how we live.

This then suggests that having Right View about kamma and rebirth is not just about establishing whether rebirth is right/wrong or knowable or not. This is not to say that it is useless to reflect on rebirth. Rather, it suggests that all the effort spent on discussing and analysing rebirth does not necessary lead one to Right View. Even if one has a nuanced argument about Right View that is supported by all the suttas, until that person starts to live with Right Action, Speech, etc, that view about rebirth is not "Right'. Nor is that person any closer to the truth of rebirth than another who doesn't talk about it.

This also suggests to me that until we gain deep insight into rebirth, we can adopt rebirth in ways that are not simply based on right/wrong, true/false. Perhaps, we can adopt rebirth as a kind of guiding narrative, a guiding metaphor, for us to live our lives and actions. If rebirth is to be realised, it realised through our actions; it is realised in the way our lives pan out. Right View is thus established in the context of our actions.

Metta,
zavk
With metta,
zavk

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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby AdvaitaJ » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:34 am

clw_uk,

I think you're on the right track bringing these discussions back to the noble eightfold path, but everything I've learned so far suggests you can't take the elements of the path one at a time; I've heard they need to be considered collectively as a system. The other thing that I think is brilliant about this tack is to remind everyone that it is a path. A person doesn't start a journey at its destination.

I've been following the discussions you referenced with great interest. For those of you whose views have formed over years of practice and study, I sometimes sense annoyance that these issues keep being brought up. However, for a beginner like me, the issue they raise is dangerously close to a binary solution set; either commit fully now and completely accept all the teachings or save yourself the effort and go do something else.

I want to continue my investigations and practice. In so many ways, Buddhism "fits" me. My practice these past months has significantly improved my life and the lives of those near me. However, I cannot (yet) wrap my head around rebirth and I don't know if I ever will. This is a problem because I read that attainment of jhana is essential to gaining the clarity of insight to "directly know" these more controversial aspects of the dhamma. The catch-22 comes about from something else I read that says you can't attain jhana without complete faith in the teachings!

I've spent a lot of time over the last days wrestling with the doubt these issues raise. That doubt was there before the threads were posted. For now, I've concluded to adopt resolve and continue but I remain thankful to those who posted these threads and to this forum for permitting them to do so.

:anjali:
AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:45 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Essential Right View

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:51 am

- Peter


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Re: Essential Right View

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:19 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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zavk
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby zavk » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:40 am

With metta,
zavk

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mikenz66
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Re: Essential Right View

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:04 am


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Re: Essential Right View

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:07 am

- Peter


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Re: Essential Right View

Postby DarkDream » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:17 am



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