When the Dhamma has done its purpose, as you say, that is nibbana. Discarding Dhamma rafts such as anatta happens then, not before.beeblebrox wrote:Of course, I never wanted to imply that anatta was non-essential... just that when it's done its purpose, then that's the time to move on with the practice. It's only the beginning.
What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
I don't have a problem with that as a general idea. You just were sounding a wee bit cryptic.beeblebrox wrote:If you're having some problems, where is that coming from? When this is figured out, let that go.
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
I don't understand how I'm being cryptic... I guess I need to come up with more metaphors. (Unless you're trying to see something that isn't just there.)Kenshou wrote:I don't have a problem with that as a general idea. You just were sounding a wee bit cryptic.
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
It was mostly this:beeblebrox wrote:I don't understand how I'm being cryptic...
The significance of this is much more than what some people on here seem to realize...
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Again... I'm not saying that you discard it. It just becomes a second habit... like the batter with his "bat." If you're fixating on the bat all the time (or you're worrying that you've forgotten your bat), the practice will suffer.daverupa wrote: When the Dhamma has done its purpose, as you say, that is nibbana. Discarding Dhamma rafts such as anatta happens then, not before.
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
There is no meaning to it beyond that. It's true that some people on here try to view nibbana as something that it's not. Sorry if you saw something in it... that wasn't my intention.Kenshou wrote:It was mostly this:beeblebrox wrote:I don't understand how I'm being cryptic...
The significance of this is much more than what some people on here seem to realize...
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
The Buddha describes bhavana in terms of seeing the world as anatta, anicca, dukkha. So, the practice is contemplating anatta. That metaphor of the bat is basically saying that swinging a bat gets in the way of swinging a bat. It's ridiculous - anatta is not a-la-carte.beeblebrox wrote:Again... I'm not saying that you discard it. It just becomes a second habit... like the batter with his "bat." If you're fixating on the bat all the time (or you're worrying that you've forgotten your bat), the practice will suffer.daverupa wrote: When the Dhamma has done its purpose, as you say, that is nibbana. Discarding Dhamma rafts such as anatta happens then, not before.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
That's not what I said with my metaphor. If you think about the bat, when you're supposed to focus on the ball, you'll be clumsy for sure. When it becomes a second habit, the bat is still there, along with the way you hold it, but you don't think about it... you're focused on the ball. This probably only makes sense if you've played baseball. Sorry if the metaphor seemed inappropriate.daverupa wrote: The Buddha describes bhavana in terms of seeing the world as anatta, anicca, dukkha. So, the practice is contemplating anatta. That metaphor of the bat is basically saying that swinging a bat gets in the way of swinging a bat. It's ridiculous - anatta is not a-la-carte.
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Yet you fundamentally claimed that by focusing on anatta,
However, the Buddha describes bhavana in terms of seeing the world as anatta, anicca, dukkha. So seeing anatta for oneself is not in the way of the practice, it is part of the practice.beeblebrox wrote:...the practice will suffer.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Focusing on thinking about the anatta. That will get you nowhere. Try to focus on the craving, or clinging, or anything else in the paticca-samuppada instead.daverupa wrote:Yet you fundamentally claimed that by focusing on anatta,
beeblebrox wrote:...the practice will suffer.
Pay attention to how they play out, without bringing in any idea about the "self."
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Focusing on (developing insight into) anatta, as well as the other characteristics is as relevant to realizing nibbana as contemplating craving, clinging and paticcasamuppada.
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
I was never arguing that.Kenshou wrote:Focusing on (developing insight into) anatta, as well as the other characteristics is as relevant to realizing nibbana as contemplating craving, clinging and paticcasamuppada.
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Oh, well it sounded like it.
Is it that you're arguing against merely thinking about these things as opposed to developing more experiential insight? I wouldn't disagree with that. Though coarser contemplation is probably going to be a natural prerequisite. But of course, isn't sufficient.
Is it that you're arguing against merely thinking about these things as opposed to developing more experiential insight? I wouldn't disagree with that. Though coarser contemplation is probably going to be a natural prerequisite. But of course, isn't sufficient.
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Something more appropriate for this thread... a quote by Dōgen:
To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things... [a few lines pointing out the anicca, dukkha, and not in the very least, anatta].
Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature
Why is that appropriate?
How can Dogen ever be relevant in a Therevada discussion?
How can Dogen ever be relevant in a Therevada discussion?