A major discover about "ancient buddhism"

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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retrofuturist
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Re: A major discover about "ancient buddhism"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dave,
daverupa wrote:Fascinating reading, maybe I'll write a book review for the forum.
Well... if you do, I would appreciate that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Sylvester
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Re: A major discover about "ancient buddhism"

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:Does anyone know anything about Steven Collins, and/or the supporting evidence for his assertion?
Not intended to be an ad hominem, but it does pay to bear in mind that Collins is influenced by Gregory Schopen's skepticism about the "datability" and provenance of the texts that are generally accepted by "Early Buddhism" scholars.

One of the main objections of Schopen to the claimed antiquity of the Pali Canon is that no certainty can be given to this claimed provenance beyond an acknowledgement that the only evidence of the Canon's "closure" comes from the time when the Commentaries were reduced to writing, ie Ven Buddhagosa's era. I think the "Early Buddhism" scholars would point out that Schopen's lack of expertise in the Chinese Agama parallels is not justification for his disbelief in the Pali Canon and Agamas closing earlier than Ven Buddhagosa, or in the utility of Textual Criticism.

I think one of the rejoinder to that was that sometime before Ven Buddhagosa, the different sects of Indian Buddhism "levelised" the texts to a more-or-less similar core. That really stands way out there, on par with some Tibetan apologists (in S'pore) who argue that Theravada must be Hinayana because a psychic council was held between the Lankan monks, the North-East Indian monks and the North-West Indian monks to standardise all the early texts...

Schopen's influence on contemporary Buddhist studies is so pervasive that you can detect Gombrich's exasperation with Schopen's insistence on epigraphy as the sole evidence that is reliable.

To get a flavour of some of Schopen's influence, check out this entry on Ajahn Sujato's blog -

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/ ... y-schopen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's a more fulsome dissection of Schopen's methods by Alexander Wynne here -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29421072/Wynn ... uttapitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: A major discover about "ancient buddhism"

Post by DNS »

Okay, I admit I have a Theravada bias, but I still don't see what Tricycle sees as such a break-through in changing the whole transmission tree.

The fragments date from the first century BCE to the third century CE. The fragments contain suttas and sutras, including many from the Pali Canon and a few from Mahayana sutras.

The written Pali Canon on Ola leaves dates from the first century BCE.

The First Buddhist Council dates to 483 BCE

The Second Buddhist Council dates to 383 BCE

The Third Buddhist Council dates to 250 BCE and was called by King Ashoka. We have edicts from Ashoka and all indications appear to be that Ashoka was a Vibhajjavadin-Theravadin.

While not undervaluing the skillful means of koans and other Mahayana practices, do any serious scholars think that the Buddha directly taught them? Or is it more likely that the Dhamma-Vinaya practiced during the time of the Buddha looked more like monastic monks, practicing a long set of rules, living in monasteries, and going on alms-rounds?
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