Goenka technique

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: Goenka technique

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 27, 2011 9:08 am

danieLion wrote: but I am also interested in the "suttanta" method and ways of deepening practice at home to at least approximate retreat like conditions
Whatever method you opt for, it is going to take a great deal of work. Also, I have no idea what is meant by the "suttanta" method. It really does not exist. What exists are various ways of putting the sutta teachings into practice as we find with the Goenka and Mahasi Sayadaw methods and others.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19636
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Goenka technique

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:14 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Mike's not confused - that's just not his approach.

Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).

There, of course, a number of interpretations of how to practise according to the Suttas (which personally I don't see as a problem, ---- different approaches seem to suit different people at different times, which is presumably why there are so many different meditation objects mentioned in the Suttas).
retrofuturist wrote:I did like your question though, and I'm interested to hear if anyone responds... I don't know of any, myself.

Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Goenka technique

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 27, 2011 9:28 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).

That's good to hear, I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

mikenz66 wrote:Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?

No, I wasn't suggesting that either.

To quote something I've said previously in relation to the suttanta approach, "The Sutta Pitaka becomes the basis for instruction and other sources (e.g. teachers, commentaries) have value to the extent that they illuminate rather than obfuscate what is contained in the Sutta Pitaka. The results may end up being similar to that of Mahavihara Theravada (as one would hope) but it's a different process of getting there."

So, in other words, someone follows the sutta as their primary instruction, rather than following a teacher's method, derived from the suttas.

To quote again, this time from thereductor, "I was thinking that we often lose sight of how the canon and the Theravada are related. That is, the Theravada is a supplement to the canon, and not the other way around. So where a mode of practice can be effectively defended with canonical material it should be considered as valid. To insist that such a position is invalid because it runs counter to the tradition is, to me, the making of inappropriate strife. And while I do concur that the canon is not the most detailed manual, I hold that the details within its pages are sufficient for completion of the goal. Whether or not a particular practitioner can ferret out the information and act on it to the degree necessary to accomplish the goal is a matter of personal conditioning."

Anyway, to tie this back to discussion on the Goenka technique, as I said earlier, I do not see it as being inconsistent with the suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Goenka technique

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:32 am

So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Goenka technique

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 27, 2011 9:35 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?

It's taking the Buddha as one's teacher, and regarding others as kalayana-mittas who may be able to render assistance in the teacher's absence.

Taking "no teacher" would not be in accord with the Triple Gem refuge.

“That which I have proclaimed and made known, Ānanda, as the Teaching and the Discipline (Dhamma-Vinaya), that shall be your Master when I am gone” (DN 16).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Goenka technique

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:44 am

Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Goenka technique

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 27, 2011 9:53 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?

That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".

I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.

Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Goenka technique

Postby danieLion » Fri May 27, 2011 10:03 am

I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually. :thinking:
danieLion
 
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Goenka technique

Postby PeterB » Fri May 27, 2011 10:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?

That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".

I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.

Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Ajahn Chah did say that... however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.
Last edited by PeterB on Fri May 27, 2011 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Goenka technique

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 27, 2011 10:14 am

Greetings danieLion,

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually. :thinking:

The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.

(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14680
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Goenka technique

Postby PeterB » Fri May 27, 2011 10:36 am

I certainly think it would be a good idea if input into this thread which is primarily about the Goenka approach was largely from either inquirers, or from people with extensive experience of same.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Goenka technique

Postby danieLion » Fri May 27, 2011 11:04 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings danieLion,

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually. :thinking:

The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.

(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)

Metta,
Retro. :)

oh. i'm interrupting. sorry. for instance threads on the Buddha as ultimate teacher/suttanta approach and/or one on something on the possibility of "solo" awakening and/or if it is possible to know the Four Truths solo?
until tomorrow, good night
danieLion
 
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Goenka technique

Postby PeterB » Fri May 27, 2011 11:08 am

I think the fact that the Buddha bequeathed THREE jewels danieLion Buddha Dhamma AND Sangha should be seen as pretty conclusive.
And I dont think he envisaged Sangha as sending messages to others merely. Or in setting up of another institution. Or a heirachy.

He meant the whole gamut of interraction, the sharing of space and mingling of breath.
The gross and the subtle.
In the profundity of his wisdom he knew that there was a whole area of our functioning which had to be in gear with the whole, that area in which we are social beings. Even though that social functioning had to be enhanced from time to time in withdrawing from it...in retreat.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Goenka technique

Postby bodom » Fri May 27, 2011 11:31 am

PeterB wrote: however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.


By Ajahn Chah's own account in Food for the Heart, and from his disciple Paul Breiter, he only stayed with Ajahn Mun for 3 days.


In Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away, Paul Breiter discusses the relationship between Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun. “Ajahn Chah spent only a few days with him but afterward always spoke of himself as a disciple of Ajahn Mun, saying, ‘If a person with good eyes stands close to something, he sees it. If his eyes are bad, it doesn’t matter how long he’s there.’


http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4622
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Goenka technique

Postby Jhana4 » Fri May 27, 2011 11:45 am

danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually. :thinking:


Possibly, by not knowing Buddhism by name, but having rediscovered what is essential.

An American born Buddhist monk, Thanisaro Bhikku, published a book called "Wings To Awakening". You can find a free copy by Googling. The theme of the book is that the Buddha knew that his teachings would eventually get distorted and die out. The Buddha made several lists describing qualities a person could develop. The most famous of these lists is The 8 Fold Path. His theory was that if a person worked to develop all of the qualities on any of those lists the quest would eventually force them to rediscover and relearn his teachings.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Goenka technique

Postby PeterB » Fri May 27, 2011 12:00 pm

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote: however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.


By Ajahn Chah's own account in Food for the Heart, and from his disciple Paul Breiter, he only stayed with Ajahn Mun for 3 days.


In Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away, Paul Breiter discusses the relationship between Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun. “Ajahn Chah spent only a few days with him but afterward always spoke of himself as a disciple of Ajahn Mun, saying, ‘If a person with good eyes stands close to something, he sees it. If his eyes are bad, it doesn’t matter how long he’s there.’


http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/

:anjali:

Its not about duration is it ?
Ajahn Chah may have stayed with Ajahn Mun for a few days , but decades later was till talking about him constantly and referring to him as his teacher.
No Ajhn Chan I. but decades after meeting with him on three occasions I still talk about him constantly.
Its not just about data or that which is able to be rendered in verbal form. There are those whose every breath , movement, and casual word is a teaching.
Without wanting to put too fine a point on it, there is a difference between a teacher and an instructor. I for one am guilty of being imprecise in the use of those terms.
We may not all have the good fortune to meet a teacher, but instruction is widely available.
All it really needs is someone who knows more than us and whose knowledge is sound.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Goenka technique

Postby Ben » Fri May 27, 2011 12:30 pm

PeterB wrote:I think the fact that the Buddha bequeathed THREE jewels danieLion Buddha Dhamma AND Sangha should be seen as pretty conclusive.
And I dont think he envisaged Sangha as sending messages to others merely. Or in setting up of another institution. Or a heirachy.

He meant the whole gamut of interraction, the sharing of space and mingling of breath.
The gross and the subtle.
In the profundity of his wisdom he knew that there was a whole area of our functioning which had to be in gear with the whole, that area in which we are social beings. Even though that social functioning had to be enhanced from time to time in withdrawing from it...in retreat.


"With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like friendship with admirable people as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful."

— Iti 17



kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16156
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Goenka technique

Postby bodom » Fri May 27, 2011 4:27 pm

PeterB wrote:Its not about duration is it ?


Thats right peter I agree, that was my point.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4622
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Goenka technique

Postby PeterB » Fri May 27, 2011 4:39 pm

And I was agreeing with you Bodom... :smile: It would appear that we agree.... :D
:anjali:
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Goenka technique

Postby bodom » Sat May 28, 2011 1:09 pm

PeterB wrote:And I was agreeing with you Bodom... :smile: It would appear that we agree.... :D
:anjali:


:smile:

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4622
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

PreviousNext

Return to Insight Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests