Drolma wrote:Do you think the karmic fruit can appear in the form of being in a position to accrue further bad karma?
I'm watching a program on Hitler Youth, thinking about how their young, vulnerable minds were put into a terrible position. And I'm speculating that their actions probably caused them to contribute to their cycle of suffering.
The last thing I want to do is defend Hitler youth, but even for them, wouldn't "intention" play a major role? If their intent was to save their families, their homes, their younger siblings, wouldn't that have put them in a position to generate more positive karma than many of us could ever achieve?
Peter wrote:Not quite. Cause is not the same as condition. Karma can never be vipaka.
Peter wrote:I still think you are conflating 'cause' and 'condition'.
Drolma wrote:I was just thinking that being born into a position to basically be forced to create negative karma and cause harm really sucks. It's a human birth, which is good, but it seems like some negative karmic fruit coming to pass too. I was thinking about the cyclic nature of all of this.
SeerObserver wrote:Being born into such a position is definitely a negative karmic fruit. It is derived from having forced others to do akusala kamma. It is a natural retribution for this in two ways.
The first way is that you are being forced to do something which will surely generate negative fruit as a result of you putting someone in that situation. The second is that you "wasted another's time", so to speak. By putting them into that situation, you have deprived them of time they could have spent on the path. As a result, even though you are a human (which is one of the most conducive states for practice), you will be deprived of the opportunity to take full advantage of that conduciveness and "waste" some of that away as well.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings SeerObserver,
Is there any evidence in the suttas that supports your exposition of kamma?
Particularly this bit "Being born into such a position is definitely a negative karmic fruit."
How can this be explained without recourse to an invisible omniscient hand (i.e. directing people to certain locations by ) foreseeing (i.e. knowing in advance what Germany was going to become in 10-20 years time) and directing the affairs of the universe (i.e. so that fruit poetically bears for those who have been naughty in previous lives)?
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:They show us that our present living conditions, our dispositions and aptitudes, our virtues and faults, result from our actions in previous lives. When we realize that our present conditions reflect our kammic past, we will also realize that our present actions are the legacy that we will transmit to our kammic descendants, that is, to ourselves in future lives.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The teaching of rebirth, taken in conjunction with the doctrine of kamma, implies that we live in a morally ordered universe, one in which our morally determinate actions bring forth fruits that in some way correspond to their own ethical quality.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The sentient universe is regulated by different orders of causation layered in such a way that higher orders of causation can exercise dominion over lower ones. Thus the order of kamma, which governs the process of rebirth, dominates the lower orders of physical and biological causation, bending their energies toward the fulfillment of its own potential. The Buddha does not posit a divine judge who rules over the workings of kamma, rewarding and punishing us for our deeds. The kammic process functions autonomously, without a supervisor or director, entirely through the intrinsic power of volitional action.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It is mental activity, in the form of volition, that constitutes kamma, and it is our stock of kamma that steers the stream of consciousness from the past life into a new body. Thus the Buddha says: "This body, O monks, is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt" (SN XI.37). It is not only the body, as a composite whole, that is the product of past kamma, but the sense faculties too (see SN XXV.146). The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body-sense, and mind-base are also fashioned by our past kamma, and thus kamma to some degree shapes and influences all our sensory experience. Since kamma is ultimately explained as volition (cetana), this means that the particular body with which we are endowed, with all its distinguishing features and faculties of sense, is rooted in our volitional activities in earlier lives.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The ultimate implication of the Buddha's teaching on kamma and rebirth is that human beings are the final masters of their own destiny. Through our unwholesome deeds, rooted in greed, hatred, and delusion, we create unwholesome kamma, the generative cause of bad rebirths, of future misery and bondage. Through our wholesome deeds, rooted in generosity, kindness, and wisdom, we beautify our minds and thereby create kamma productive of a happy rebirth.
1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life.
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