Why not ordain?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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altar
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by altar »

Pannananda, I am wondering if you can provide information the effects of a monastic environment or wherever you were had on the senses, as in, restlessness due to the senses.
Nicro
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Nicro »

pannananda wrote:I was a monk for 13 years and am now seriously considering re ordaining.

I struggled throughout the 13 years because though I was dedicated to the goal-nibbana-I was too attached to sense pleasures. Another way to put it would be that I desired the ultimate sukha but couldn't see dukkha.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then and as a 48 year old I look on life very differently. I still want the ultimate happiness and the notion of dukkha coupled with weariness of the world and sensuality is now very much there.

I have been visiting monasteries, normally every year, for a few days, since disrobing. I used to look forward to seeing my old mates but couldn't concentrate and was always glad to be back home in front of the telly, with the missus. Now when I visit, I don't want to leave and meditation is easier.

So I know the time for me to (re) ordain has come.

My advice to anyone else is to stay in monasteries for extended periods and if you want it to carry on then go for it. No one can meditate all the time, so if you are bored pick up a teach yourself Pali book and start learning. Reading suttas in Pali is very inspiring.
What was it like going back to being a householder after that? I mean 13 years? Like....I wouldn't even know what to start doing
Digity
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Digity »

My goal is to establish a strong practice as a lay person first. My feeling is that if you can't establish a good practice as a lay person then you're probably not going to last long as a monk. That's why I'm trying to avoid getting married and having kids, because in 5 years if I want to take that next step I want option to be open.

It's still a hard decision. In 5 years my mom will be 70 and she'll need some assistence due to medical reasons. I'll likely be the one helping her most, especially if I don't have children to take care of, unlike my brother and sister who do.

I feel torn between two worlds. It can be hard following Buddhism, especially if the people around you don't understand how you feel. I tell people that I don't want to get married, have kids, etc. but I don't explain that it's because I want the freedom to practice meditation, etc. I don't feel comfortable discussing these things with them. I think it's a personal matter, but at the same time it makes you feel out of touch with your surrounds, since everyone else is looking to get married, have kids and so on.

I wonder, for those of you that ordained did you just know it's something you had to do or were you very hesitant? I'd think that to make such a big decision you'd have to be 100% sure about it. I'm curious about people's state of mind before they ordained. Thanks.
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ground
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by ground »

Digity wrote:My goal is to establish a strong practice as a lay person first. My feeling is that if you can't establish a good practice as a lay person then you're probably not going to last long as a monk.
Interesting. This appears plausible.


Kind regards
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dharmaamrita
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by dharmaamrita »

Digity wrote:My goal is to establish a strong practice as a lay person first. My feeling is that if you can't establish a good practice as a lay person then you're probably not going to last long as a monk. That's why I'm trying to avoid getting married and having kids, because in 5 years if I want to take that next step I want option to be open.

It's still a hard decision. In 5 years my mom will be 70 and she'll need some assistence due to medical reasons. I'll likely be the one helping her most, especially if I don't have children to take care of, unlike my brother and sister who do.

I feel torn between two worlds. It can be hard following Buddhism, especially if the people around you don't understand how you feel. I tell people that I don't want to get married, have kids, etc. but I don't explain that it's because I want the freedom to practice meditation, etc. I don't feel comfortable discussing these things with them. I think it's a personal matter, but at the same time it makes you feel out of touch with your surrounds, since everyone else is looking to get married, have kids and so on.

I wonder, for those of you that ordained did you just know it's something you had to do or were you very hesitant? I'd think that to make such a big decision you'd have to be 100% sure about it. I'm curious about people's state of mind before they ordained. Thanks.
My reason is the very similar, perhaps just jumping into the homeless is not the right thing to do. Whether I am in the forests of Thailand, or a silent monastery or in Sri Lanka or the quietness of my room in a city, in all places there is still my mind. It needs to be purified whether im there or here or somewhere else. The Dhamma is always accessible here and now....when time to ordain comes...will ordain.
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Ytrog
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Ytrog »

Why ordain if you already have a pure mind? ;)

In my humble opinion you need some basic restraint. For the rest: the point of ordaining is (among other things) to purify your mind. Having a pure mind as a prerequisite to ordination seems therefore a bit strange to me.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Virgo
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Virgo »

Digity wrote: I feel torn between two worlds. It can be hard following Buddhism, especially if the people around you don't understand how you feel. I tell people that I don't want to get married, have kids, etc. but I don't explain that it's because I want the freedom to practice meditation, etc. I don't feel comfortable discussing these things with them. I think it's a personal matter, but at the same time it makes you feel out of touch with your surrounds, since everyone else is looking to get married, have kids and so on.
I feel the same way. My real friends understand how I feel now, but some people never will. It is especially hard at work. The women are always hitting on me. Last week one of the women told me her birthday was coming up and that she was going out to a local bar (I don't drink). She rubbed my arm from my shoulder down to my hand and told me I should come. I had to turn her down (gently of course). I don't want marriage, relationships, I don't even really want sexual encounters at all (though I do have yearnings at times). Two days later (and before the night the first lady was going out for her Birthday on) another lady there who flirts with me all the time called me up on my work phone and asked me if I was single. I told her 'yes'. She told me that then maybe we could spend some time together. She said that actually she was going to go out with her friend that weekend because it was her friends birthday (the first lady) and that I should accompany her. I had to let her down too. I feel bad, but it's not like I can tell people that I'd rather not make love. I just have to gently decline and say that not interested.

Kevin
nobody12345
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by nobody12345 »

@Digity and Virgo, both of you handle the issue with sex and relationship wisely.
It is wise not to inform your colleague about your motivation of avoiding sex and relationship.
In the eyes of regular people, we'd be seen as lunatic.
They would never understand that the fundamental nature of sex and relationship is suffering/hindrance/fetter.
Let them have their party.
Let it be.
Metta.
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Virgo
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Virgo »

imaginos wrote:@Digity and Virgo, both of you handle the issue with sex and relationship wisely.
It is wise not to inform your colleague about your motivation of avoiding sex and relationship.
In the eyes of regular people, we'd be seen as lunatic.
They would never understand that the fundamental nature of sex and relationship is suffering/hindrance/fetter.
Let them have their party.
Let it be.
Metta.
Thank you Imaginos :smile:
flux
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by flux »

To ordain or not, such a tricky question that only you can answer, and the fact that you are asking is a good sign that there must have been some deeper insights into your life and Buddhism.

Bear this is mind from a 'Buddhist viewpoint'.

1. To gain human rebirth is a tremendous blessing, to come into contact with Buddha/Tathagata dispensation/teachings on Dhamma is extremely fortunate in these 'unfortunate' times, and perhaps ripening of past merits.

2. Since coming in contact with Buddhism, get established as least in stream entry(which is relatively easy, and secures good Kamma tt helps a fortunate rebirth) in whatever situation/environment you are in. With practice in meditation guided by a good teacher, and investigation of the Sutta Pitaka(highly recommend Bhikku Bodhi's, "In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon"), you will be able to strive to attain at least Sotapanna(stream-entry) or Sakadagami(once-returner) which will provide you with deeper insights to contemplate on, in relation to ordination.

3. Ordination does not necessarily mean an 'easy life' and very often the idealized image may come crashing down, dependent of course on where you ordain, and which tradition to. Sangha's are after all still formed by humans, and there will be drawbacks and benefits. That being said, it definitely helps to have support from people that speak the same language, supportive of growth.

4. From observation, with deepening practice and insights, path & fruits will be attained, and due to the abandoning of the fetters, there will be a natural progression/inclination towards dispassion/detachment towards worldly elements, and will become a natural path towards ordination.

5. Ordination can often involve more 'work' than in normal worldly living, more vicissitudes, challenges, but with deeper practice, you can develop the capacity. So be prepared for more work work work! Take joy in knowing that Dhamma Dana is the greatest merit among all other Dana's.

6. Kalyanamitta's(spiritual friends) are the whole of the holy life, and how to identify them are also in the Sutta Nikaya's themselves. Investigate and penetrate the Suttas, meditate here and now, and be an island unto your own self. Do not take the Buddhas word for the truth, and only accept it once you have investigated it and experienced it yourself.

7. Ordination does allow and create the environment for lesser distractions, and as mentioned by a Dhamma brother before, cravings and aversions will show up as agitation.

I remember someone asking, is worldly experience needed for ordination? I think perhaps so, or maybe no, without that, can we ever know what is suffering?

To end off, here is a quote I read today that I felt to share.

"What kills the living does not die; what gives birth to the living is not born. What it is brings on everything and sends off everything, breaks everything down and makes everything. Its name is peace from agitation. Peace from agitation is attained only after agitation." -Chuang'tzu-

NamoBuddhaya
With Metta,
J
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain. I know that many of you are well versed and practiced but if you know that life is full of suffering, why do you not strive to end that suffering with the most effective way possible? All opinons are valid.
I enjoy meditation very much and I enjoy reading the suttas very much. I don't think I would become a monk because:

- I'm strongly agnostic about it being possible for someone to actually be an arahant

- I don't believe is some significant parts of Buddhism: rebirth, kamma ( beyond cause and effect ), etc

- I don't want to give up having romantic and sexual relationships with women

- I don't want to give up my independence in being able to earn my own money,take care of myself and make some of my own choices in regards to lifestyle.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
flux
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by flux »

Jhana4 wrote:
Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain. I know that many of you are well versed and practiced but if you know that life is full of suffering, why do you not strive to end that suffering with the most effective way possible? All opinons are valid.
I enjoy meditation very much and I enjoy reading the suttas very much. I don't think I would become a monk because:

- I'm strongly agnostic about it being possible for someone to actually be an arahant

- I don't believe is some significant parts of Buddhism: rebirth, kamma ( beyond cause and effect ), etc

- I don't want to give up having romantic and sexual relationships with women

- I don't want to give up my independence in being able to earn my own money,take care of myself and make some of my own choices in regards to lifestyle.
It is great to be established in meditation, and to penetrate the truths in the suttas, and it's perfectly understandable where you are with regards to becoming a monk.

Skepticism about becoming an arahant and doubts about rebirth & Kamma(both concepts which often can be easily misunderstood and colored?) are still doubts, and among the 5 hindrances, doubt and lust(sexually) are but 2 of them.
Not that I am advocating blind faith, but more so, I hope that you will find a mentor that will be able to guide you to penetrate those truths, experience them yourself, and remove those doubts as part of 'progress' on the path of Dhamma.

With arahants, there are quite a few distinctions between each of their attainment fruits, and ways of attaining Nibbana. Most common thing they share among all of them thou is their attainment, which is termed the nibbana element with a residue remaining(due to still being alive with 5 aggregates still active).

As with Kamma, there really is not anything more than cause and effect I think. It is more important to observe how our whole 'reality' and world system function in accordance to the cycle of cause and effect.

Could passion be one of the strongest attachment and craving in the sense desire world? From my understanding, 3 realms of existence too, sense desire world, form world, formless worlds. The latter two each corresponding to development in meditation.

Independence or interdependence? =D Contemplate identity view, and Anatta(non-self?)? To choose to ordain is to choose a lifestyle, as you have already chosen yours too. No right or wrong, as to live is to walk the Dhamma path, only 'difference' is walking it more or less consciously?
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Flux;

Thanks for the non-judgmental and supportive post.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Anyone considering such a dramatic move as ordaining as a Buddhist monk and asking themselves the questions "Why not ordain?" should read the related thread about the book called "The Broken Buddha" by the Venerable S. Dhammika. This link goes to that thread ( which has links in it to the PDF version of the book ) rather than the book.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Alex123
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Alex123 »

Jhana4 wrote:Anyone considering such a dramatic move as ordaining as a Buddhist monk and asking themselves the questions "Why not ordain?" should read the related thread about the book called "The Broken Buddha" by the Venerable S. Dhammika. This link goes to that thread ( which has links in it to the PDF version of the book ) rather than the book.

I remember reading it. In any case, I think that there are good and not so good monasteries. I don't think that every monastery is like the Ven. Dhammika has described. I understand that some people are not ready, and some may ordain for less than perfect reasons.

But I do hope that a diligent practitioner can quietly practice without getting into the politics and so on.

I may need to read that article again as the issue of ordination weighs heavily on my mind (I hope eventually to ordain and be a good bhikkhu).
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