Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
pelletboy
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 12:58 pm

Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby pelletboy » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:51 pm

As it is said in the Dhamma its alright to have sex with women as long as they are not one of the 20 kinds of forbidden women. My question is 1.) what if a woman or a courtesan who is married didn't say she was married and you consummated with her will it be breaking the 3rd Precept?
2.) And what if a husband allows his wife to have sex with other men will it be a non-breach of the 3rd Precept?
3.) And what if you had sex with a married woman (or man) that has his or her wedding annulled (meaning it undoes the marriage, as if it never occurred) later?

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:32 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby PeterB » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:46 pm

I think that there might be more to the whole concept of Sila than that.

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 5713
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby bodom » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:28 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:58 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby PeterB » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:06 pm

Given your professed ambilivance to, and relative lack of exposure to, various aspects of Buddha Dhamma I think I will will elsewhere for homilies about its interpretation.
All of the teachers I respect talk about the centrality and subtlety of Sila.

PS Your interpretation of "Sati" is well off too.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:31 pm

Hi Peter;

I think you assessment of where I am coming from is wrong. I'm not a Buddhist. I do informally (outside of academia) study Buddhism at two viharas in my area. I also attend meditation classes at the viharas. Additionally, like everyone else here I read loads of books on my own.

It is my impression that what is Sila in Buddhism has nothing to do with what is "holy", right for the sake of being right, wrong for the sake of being wrong or something handed down from a divine entity. The ethical rules for lay people and monastics are a means to an end.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 5713
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby bodom » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:47 pm

:focus:

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby PeterB » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:04 pm


pelletboy
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby pelletboy » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:13 am

Hmmm... There isn't one answer that answers my questions spot on...Concepts of what virtue is and why we practice it, your opinions of them may be reserved for another topic. Please answer the questions specifically according to the Dhamma..

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby cooran » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:29 am

Hello Pelletboy, all,

This article may be of interest:

Buddhism and Sex by M. O'C. Walshe
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:47 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:05 am

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby PeterB » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:29 pm


User avatar
Bodhisurfer
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: Cornwall, England

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Bodhisurfer » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:14 pm

Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:19 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:34 pm

Hi Blackbird, it isn't clear from your quoting who you are referring to. I'll assume you are referring to me. I don't understand how believing that sila was not handed down by a deity and believing that it is a means to an end equates to minimizing its role in the dhamma.

The origin of sila or its "non-holy" ( a term which may not make sense in Buddhist philosophy since gods have much less importance ) doesn't change the (high) level of importance of it in Buddhism. Sila is all over the canon.

I think that unconscious westernization of sila is also why some people get upset when it is discussed. In western religions something that is not of holy origins is of less value. Having that attitude I can see why a person running on unconscious western religious assumptions would get offended when someone would point out the non-divine origins of sila. Saying it is not holy would be the same as saying it is not important......on an emotional level, though that would be far from the case on a rational level.

Personally, as someone who is not a "secular humanist", but who comes from a similar background, sila, on an emotional level, has more importance to me as something with "wordly" reasons for its extreme importance. Those reasons translate into visible, understandable value.........much more than a set arbitrary laws with mythical origins that may never have existed.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:41 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1925
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:54 pm

Jhana4 I was refering to you. Looking over it, I must have stuffed up the quote brackets. To clarify I meant the tone of your post in general and not your interesting points on westerners unintentinally bringing Christian ethics to a Buddhist party. Be that as it may your tone seems to insinuate to me (perhaps I'm reading too much into this) that sila is not the be all and end all and it's a guideline kind of thing rather than something that one should perservere with, to the best of their ability.

The Buddha would not have spoken lightly of the importance of sila for making progress in his Dhamma. It is of the utmost importance for very practical reasons - The pursual of nibbana, or failing that the avoidance of hell and the animal realm and a long, healthy and happy life in the present. Perhaps in return you could clarify how much of this view accords with your own, and if it does not - On what grounds.
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Postby ground » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:55 pm



Return to “Sīla”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine