Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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BlackBird
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by BlackBird »

Jhana4 wrote:
PeterB wrote:I think that there might be more to the whole concept of Sila than that.[/quote

Not much. Sila is about "practical" considerations, holding the community/sangha together, making your life conducive to meditation, reducing bad kamma/increasing good kamma and reducing suffering. It isn't about morality in the western religious sense where there is some god who is going to smack you down if you don't follow commandments. Sila is there, as strong advice, for your benefit and the benefit of your community.
I don't see anything terribly at odds with the Buddha Dhamma here. Christian morality and Buddhist morality do attack the same problem from different angles, and for different reasons. But I think the tone of your post here runs the risk of marginalizing something that is very fundamental for progress in this Dhamma. If we were to employ the shelter metaphor - Building your shelter from the storm of death - Nibbana being the shelter in it's complete form, then Sila is the foundations, the cornerstone.

Practical? Yes. Important? Very.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Jhana4
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by Jhana4 »

Hi Blackbird, it isn't clear from your quoting who you are referring to. I'll assume you are referring to me. I don't understand how believing that sila was not handed down by a deity and believing that it is a means to an end equates to minimizing its role in the dhamma.

The origin of sila or its "non-holy" ( a term which may not make sense in Buddhist philosophy since gods have much less importance ) doesn't change the (high) level of importance of it in Buddhism. Sila is all over the canon.

I think that unconscious westernization of sila is also why some people get upset when it is discussed. In western religions something that is not of holy origins is of less value. Having that attitude I can see why a person running on unconscious western religious assumptions would get offended when someone would point out the non-divine origins of sila. Saying it is not holy would be the same as saying it is not important......on an emotional level, though that would be far from the case on a rational level.

Personally, as someone who is not a "secular humanist", but who comes from a similar background, sila, on an emotional level, has more importance to me as something with "wordly" reasons for its extreme importance. Those reasons translate into visible, understandable value.........much more than a set arbitrary laws with mythical origins that may never have existed.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by Jhana4 »

cooran wrote:Hello Pelletboy, all,

This article may be of interest:

Buddhism and Sex by M. O'C. Walshe
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Bookmarking it for later, thanks!
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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BlackBird
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by BlackBird »

Jhana4 I was refering to you. Looking over it, I must have stuffed up the quote brackets. To clarify I meant the tone of your post in general and not your interesting points on westerners unintentinally bringing Christian ethics to a Buddhist party. Be that as it may your tone seems to insinuate to me (perhaps I'm reading too much into this) that sila is not the be all and end all and it's a guideline kind of thing rather than something that one should perservere with, to the best of their ability.

The Buddha would not have spoken lightly of the importance of sila for making progress in his Dhamma. It is of the utmost importance for very practical reasons - The pursual of nibbana, or failing that the avoidance of hell and the animal realm and a long, healthy and happy life in the present. Perhaps in return you could clarify how much of this view accords with your own, and if it does not - On what grounds.
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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ground
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by ground »

pelletboy wrote:As it is said ... its alright to have sex with ......
And what if you had sex with ...
Actually these are thoughts I would not recommend to engage in ... I do not think that pondering in this way can lead to detachment. On the contrary i feel such kinds of thoughts are manifestations of habits already prevalent and entail further enhancement of those habits

Kind regards
beeblebrox
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by beeblebrox »

Jhana4 wrote:I think that unconscious westernization of sila is also why some people get upset when it is discussed. In western religions something that is not of holy origins is of less value. Having that attitude I can see why a person running on unconscious western religious assumptions would get offended when someone would point out the non-divine origins of sila. Saying it is not holy would be the same as saying it is not important......on an emotional level, though that would be far from the case on a rational level.
Exactly... I think that was basically the brahmins' mindset at the time of the Buddha. So, one should be careful not to elevate himself just by his adherence to something, such as Sila (i.e., by parroting, or by claiming that he sees it as something divine). It's meant to be practiced, leading to an holy life... but not seen as something that is holy in itself. (Hope that makes sense.)
Bodhisurfer wrote:personally I take a much broader view of what sexual misconduct is. To me its far more than a physical act with someone outside of my existing relationship. -I would include looking upon someone lustfully in the street or even on tv. Also treating someone less favourably purely because of their gender is, to me, a form of sexual misconduct -I'm not claiming that i never do any of these things by the way but arent we all 'a work in progress' :buddha1:
I think that's really admirable. Maybe I should start focusing on thinking in that way. :)

:anjali:
PeterB
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by PeterB »

No one has suggested that Sila can or should stand alone...but it is of the essence nevertheless.
To approach Buddha Dhamma from a stand point of rejection of moral absolutes and value judgements because of association with our own cultural conditioning is to risk grave error.
beeblebrox
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by beeblebrox »

PeterB wrote:No one has suggested that Sila can or should stand alone...but it is of the essence nevertheless.
Yes, I agree. The Triple Jewel of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

:anjali:
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by DNS »

Marriage is not a sacrament in Buddhism. There is no requirement for Buddhists to be married or to not marry (except for monastics of course). Therefore, the standard of no sex outside of marriage rule that most of us have been conditioned to from our Judeo-Christian backgrounds may not apply.

During the Buddha's time and after there were examples of polygamy and polyandry and there were no direct statements by the Buddha against these forms of non-monogamous marriages. However, if we look at the spirit of the teachings, they are clearly to move us away from tanha / too much craving. And there are other quotes which seem to imply or infer that monogamy is the best. For example, the Buddha teaches on how a wife should treat her husband and also how a husband should treat his wife. It appears to at least be a sort of middle ground between "rigid puritanism" and "total permissiveness".
Jhana4
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by Jhana4 »

BlackBird wrote: Be that as it may your tone seems to insinuate to me (perhaps I'm reading too much into this) that sila is not the be all and end all and it's a guideline kind of thing rather than something that one should perservere with, to the best of their ability.
I do believe it is a guideline. I don't see it as an "end all be all" in itself, but only as part of the goals of walking the meditative path and reducing bad kamma, but maybe that is mincing words as those are huge things and sila contributes much to making both happen.

From my perspective as a meditator the value of sila has always seemed matter of fact, obvious to me without the need to put it on a pedestal and shine lights on it. However, that is me and I do realize that other people may benefit from having it presented to them with more emphasis.

If you could articulate to me what about my previous post made it look like I was implying sila was trivial I would be grateful to know.

Thanks
Last edited by Jhana4 on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by Jhana4 »

PeterB wrote:No one has suggested that Sila can or should stand alone...but it is of the essence nevertheless.
To approach Buddha Dhamma from a stand point of rejection of moral absolutes and value judgments because of association with our own cultural conditioning is to risk grave error.
I can't agree with that, if what you are writing is advocating following sila without question.

Kamma is driven by intention. I see better results coming from questioning the "why" behind the rules and owning the "why" than just following the rules because they are the rules.

On a mundane level, consider the precept against intoxicants. That precept is there not to avoid intoxicants as end in itself, but to avoid bad situations and bad kamma that may result from letting your brain function becoming impaired. If you understand the reasoning behind that precept it becomes more powerful. For instance, tea was never considered as an intoxicant, but a modern Buddhist can know that is s/he has had too much s/he acts in a short tempered way angering many people. If that modern Buddhist was only concerned about following the letter of the law, s/he might continue to use tea. However, if she questioned the spirit of the law, the reason and goals behind the rule, s/he would see that using less tea would apply to that precept.

As another example, if a monk needed surgery. The anasthesia before the surgery and perhaps a pain killer after the surgery would certainly impair their brain function. Following the precept without question would disallow the surgery. Knowing the reasoning behind it would allow the surgery to happen.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
PeterB
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by PeterB »

No, that is not "what I am writing".
rowyourboat
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi All,

Right view (mundane or supramundane) should be the reason for sila. What does that tell you?
"And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
santa100
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by santa100 »

Usually when the term "sexual misconduct" is mentioned, it means that's something bad, illegal, unwholesome...and especially something that one wants to hide or cover up. So, with that definition, before sex, ask your partner this question: "Suppose right now (just a big suppose), we're going to "do" it in broad day-light in front of all of our friends, relatives, loved ones... do you or any of them feel much suffering (little embarassment is ok)?" If yes, then better to rethink about what you're doing...
alan
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Re: Sex with Courtesans and Married People

Post by alan »

That is a plainly awful question which has no relevance to any moral situation.
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