"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ground
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"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by ground »

From another thread:
TMingyur wrote:As to the Upanisa Sutta I noticed that where Thanissaro B. has "disenchantment" B. Bodhi has "revulsion". This difference in translation seem to prevade all their sutta translations.

Kind regards
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TMingyur,

Interesting observation. I prefer 'disenchantment' as I find it difficult to see how 'revulsion' does not entail 'aversion'... and I doubt aversion is what is intended.

Metta,
Retro. :)
TMingyur wrote:Hi retro

not being a native speaker I am somewhat dependent of dictionaries. The "Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English" (Edition 1977) has for
revulsion:
"sudden and complete change of feeling
disenchant:
"free from enchantment or illusion" [-ment, noun]

Some directly translating dictionaries seem to take revulsion to be sort of synonym for "disgust" and disenchantment to be sort of synonym for "soberness".

Although I feel that "disgust" may allude to "nausea" which I find inappropriate for me "revulsion" has more of "determination" and "irreversibility" which is why I tend to prefer revulsion.


What's your preference as to these terms and why?


Kind regards
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Goofaholix
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Goofaholix »

That's a very weak definition of revulsion, I'm with Retro on this, see from dictionary.com...

–noun
1.
a strong feeling of repugnance, distaste, or dislike: Cruelty fills me with revulsion.
2.
a sudden and violent change of feeling or response in sentiment, taste, etc.
3.
the act of drawing something back or away.

Looks like a synonym of aversion to me.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by mikenz66 »

Perhaps it would be useful to point out that the Pali word is nibbida.

See also: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Introduction to his SN translation Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
Nibbida, in [MN translation] was translated "disenchantment". However, the word or its cognates is sometimes used in ways which suggest that something stronger is intended. Hence I now translate the noun as "revulsion", and the corresponding verb nibbindati as "to experience revulsion". What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth. Revulsion arises from knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana), and naturally leads to dispassion (viraga) and liberation (vimutti; on the sequence see SN 12.23 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html]).
:anjali:
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Nyana »

TMingyur wrote:What's your preference as to these terms and why?
I prefer "disenchantment," for the reasons that Retro gave. See also Buddhadharma: The Practitioners Quarterly Dharma Dictionary: Nibbida by Andrew Olendzki.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by chownah »

from the quote in the previous post:
Revulsion arises from knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana), and naturally leads to dispassion
To me it makes more sense that disenchantment would naturally result in dispassion rather than revulsion. To paraphrase....the state of no longer being enchanted (disenchantment) would naturally result in dispassion....this makes sense to me.... stop the enchantment and then reach an equilibrium (dispassion)...........on the other hand revulsion is in my mind an active and agitated thing and so does not seem to naturally result in dispassion...put another way, disenchantment is a cooling while revulsion is a heating of mind....in my view.
chownah
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Aloka »

chownah wrote:from the quote in the previous post:
Revulsion arises from knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana), and naturally leads to dispassion
To me it makes more sense that disenchantment would naturally result in dispassion rather than revulsion. To paraphrase....the state of no longer being enchanted (disenchantment) would naturally result in dispassion....this makes sense to me.... stop the enchantment and then reach an equilibrium (dispassion)...........on the other hand revulsion is in my mind an active and agitated thing and so does not seem to naturally result in dispassion...put another way, disenchantment is a cooling while revulsion is a heating of mind....in my view.
chownah

Yes I agree, personally I find the word 'revulsion' brings to mind a passionate reaction. Indeed in my Oxford Dictionary, one of the main definitions is " sudden violent change of feeling" .

with kind wishes,

Aloka
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Adrien
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Adrien »

I always agreed with you, but now I'm thinking that it could be a part of the path, and not the fruit. Ultimately, aversion is unskillfull, but maybe there is a stage when we stop craving for sensual pleasures, and start to be disgusted by them. It's far better to be revulsed by the sensual pleasures than attracted. And it may be considered as usefull on the path to renouncement. Then, instead of working on our passion to sensual pleasures, we will have to work with this aversion, and we will progress.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to replace my craving for pleasure by aversion.

Also, I've read that some christian monks use the same vocabulary : "what seemed very nice to me, today I find it to be horrible" (free quotation).
My mother said to me that when she first read that, she thought "this is exagerate", but now, she's starting to feel the same (she's a christian, and practice orthodox meditations).

I found this article quite interesting (though I didn't read all of it) : http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... a-piya.pdf
He says that revulsion is a better translation than disenchantment.
And here the sutta collection that goes with it : http://dharmafarer.net/index.html
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by PeterB »

Perhaps there is room for both...and once more maybe this illustrates the limitations in attempting a one word for word English/Pali translation...

I am revolted by rape.
I am disenchanted by porn.
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Aloka
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Aloka »

I am revolted by cruelty to children and animals

I am disenchanted with Santa Claus
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by mikenz66 »

Aloka wrote:I am revolted by cruelty to children and animals

I am disenchanted with Santa Claus
Translation is a tricky thing. Revulsion may not be an ideal translation but disenchantment with something harmless like Santa Claus doesn't seem to me to capture the seriousness of samsara:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering..
:anjali:
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by daverupa »

Antipathy, perhaps dyspathy.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Jhana4 »

TMingyur wrote:From another thread:
TMingyur wrote:As to the Upanisa Sutta I noticed that where Thanissaro B. has "disenchantment" B. Bodhi has "revulsion". This difference in translation seem to pervade all their sutta translations.

The connotations of some alternate word choices for translations seem to foster what is reminiscent of a puritan orthodoxy to me. "Revulsion" vs "disenchantment" is one example. "Defilements" vs "hindrances" is another. Why an American born in modern times would want to risk encouraging such a puritanish orthodoxish mentality is a mystery.

To give Bhikku Bodhi the benefit of the doubt, he simply may be picking the words that are most technically correct by his view. I don't know Pali. I wonder though if anyone does. Pali is a dead language. Students depend on teachers to convey the words and the connotations to them. Mistakes and misunderstands likely happened over 2000 years passing down that knowledge. There is no place where people still speak Pali to go and check and if there was that wouldn't mean that a "modern Pali" would use words in the same ways as an ancient Pali.

An accurate translation of the Pali Canon may be something forever beyond our reach.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Jhana4 »

I've gotten a lot out of reading alternate translations of suttas, something the internet makes much convenient. A thought provoking exercise is to swap out the nouns and adjectives in a passage with words with similar meanings but different connotations.

"Suffering" is a good example. My understanding is that "dukkha" refers to a range of negative emotions from dissatisfaction at one extreme to "suffering" at another. When I think of "suffering" I think of child birth or someone being in a POW camp. Occasionally thinking of "dukkha" as "dissatisfaction" helps me connect my everyday experiences to the suttas.

Swapping "cultivating disenchantment to reduce the hindrances" seems to "connect" with me much more than "cultivating revulsion to uproot the defilements", which sounds like some old anti-life religious, rigid orthodoxy to me.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by Nyana »

The Pāḷi term nibbidā is related to nibbindati, which is derived from the negative prefix nis-, meaning “not,” and the verb root vindati, meaning “to find.” And so nibbindati means “without finding,” and carries the connotations of “becoming weary of” and “turning away from.” When we clearly see each and every experience as impermanent, unsatisfactory, and empty, we no longer find satisfaction in fabricated things. We grow weary of trying to propagate and seek delight in worldly comforts and worldly concerns. This sense of weariness is expressed in Dhammapada 277-279:
  • ‘All fabrications are impermanent.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.

    ‘All fabrications are unsatisfactory.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.

    ‘All phenomena are not-self.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.
This weariness with what is unsatisfactory is disenchantment, which arises due to knowing and seeing things as they are. We begin to feel the hollowness of engaging in affairs which aren’t directly related to the development of the path.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Ñāṇa wrote:The Pāḷi term nibbidā is related to nibbindati, which is derived from the negative prefix nis-, meaning “not,” and the verb root vindati, meaning “to find.” And so nibbindati means “without finding,” and carries the connotations of “becoming weary of” and “turning away from.” When we clearly see each and every experience as impermanent, unsatisfactory, and empty, we no longer find satisfaction in fabricated things. We grow weary of trying to propagate and seek delight in worldly comforts and worldly concerns. This sense of weariness is expressed in Dhammapada 277-279:
  • ‘All fabrications are impermanent.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.

    ‘All fabrications are unsatisfactory.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.

    ‘All phenomena are not-self.’
    Seeing this with discernment
    One grows weary of unsatisfactoriness.
    This is the path to purity.
This weariness with what is unsatisfactory is disenchantment, which arises due to knowing and seeing things as they are. We begin to feel the hollowness of engaging in affairs which aren’t directly related to the development of the path.

All the best,

Geoff
This is very well said. It is hard to give a single word which sums up nibbindati, but I prefer disenchantment. For my own contemplation of this nuance of release ‘being over it’ fits, where the tedious fault of seeking satisfaction in any condition is revealed and let go of.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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