"Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

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"Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby phil » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:32 pm

The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.


Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:38 pm

Duplicate thread removed from view.
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 pm

I'd have thought it was a good translation for Atta, translating Atta "self" implies somthing real adding "hood" at the end implies something conceptual to me.
"Whenever we feel that we are definitely right, so much so that we refuse to open up to anything or anybody else, right there we are wrong. It becomes wrong view. When suffering arises, where does it arise from? The cause is wrong view, the fruit of that being suffering. If it was right view it wouldn't cause suffering." - Ajahn Chah
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby phil » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:37 am

Goofaholix wrote:I'd have thought it was a good translation for Atta, translating Atta "self" implies somthing real adding "hood" at the end implies something conceptual to me.



Thanks Goofaholix.

This sutta refers to kamma bearing fruit in future lifetimes, if I'm not mistaken, so it would seem that if it were simply "atta" it would imply a transmigrating self.

I agree that "hood" adds conceptual sense, and helps to differentiate from a real entity self and maybe one reading the Pali with right understanding would read it as such even if it were simply atta..

But I have seen Pali terms that provide for that sense of self, they always interest me...
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:50 am

phil wrote:The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.
Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...


The pali is "attabhāvo nibbattati"
atta=soul; oneself.
attabhāvo= personality; individuality.
bhāvo = condition; nature; becoming.
nibbattati= is born; results; arises.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby phil » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:45 am

Alex123 wrote:
phil wrote:The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.
Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...


The pali is "attabhāvo nibbattati"
atta=soul; oneself.
attabhāvo= personality; individuality.
bhāvo = condition; nature; becoming.
nibbattati= is born; results; arises.



Intetesting, thanks Alex.
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby gavesako » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:19 pm

Yes, the Pali word "attabhāva" is used in the Suttas often to describe the shape of form in which one is reborn, lit. "self-hood". In one sutta a deva is reborn with a subtle body the size or two or three fields for example.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."

Postby phil » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:00 am

gavesako wrote:Yes, the Pali word "attabhāva" is used in the Suttas often to describe the shape of form in which one is reborn, lit. "self-hood". In one sutta a deva is reborn with a subtle body the size or two or three fields for example.


Thank you, Bhante.

I might like to continue this topic and ask for other reference where-else attabhaava is used in the canon, and also ask about whether the idea of bhava includes different selfhood that "turn up" moment by moment, rather than with the rebirth citta, but not here and not now, especially since it was moved into the Pali corner, not a place for that topic.
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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