The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.
Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...
"Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
"Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
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Learn this from the waters:
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- Sutta Nipata 3.725
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
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e: [email protected]..
- Goofaholix
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Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
I'd have thought it was a good translation for Atta, translating Atta "self" implies somthing real adding "hood" at the end implies something conceptual to me.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
Goofaholix wrote:I'd have thought it was a good translation for Atta, translating Atta "self" implies somthing real adding "hood" at the end implies something conceptual to me.
Thanks Goofaholix.
This sutta refers to kamma bearing fruit in future lifetimes, if I'm not mistaken, so it would seem that if it were simply "atta" it would imply a transmigrating self.
I agree that "hood" adds conceptual sense, and helps to differentiate from a real entity self and maybe one reading the Pali with right understanding would read it as such even if it were simply atta..
But I have seen Pali terms that provide for that sense of self, they always interest me...
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
The pali is "attabhāvo nibbattati"phil wrote:The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.
Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...
atta=soul; oneself.
attabhāvo= personality; individuality.
bhāvo = condition; nature; becoming.
nibbattati= is born; results; arises.
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
Alex123 wrote:The pali is "attabhāvo nibbattati"phil wrote:The title of this thread refers to a ttanslation used in AN 3.33 by Ven. Thannisaro. As we know, he sometimes uses comtoversial turns of phrase. I personally don't have a problem with "selfhood" because I know his point is always that our sense of self or personal identity is fabricated and will or will not be seen through. But I wonder if anyone could provide the Pali that is used that he translated as "selfhood.". I remember there is a term that might be something like attano bhava patilabho (might!) to describe the sense(?)of personal existence or personal identity, I wonder if that is used here.
Thanks, if there are any Pali pals out there...
atta=soul; oneself.
attabhāvo= personality; individuality.
bhāvo = condition; nature; becoming.
nibbattati= is born; results; arises.
Intetesting, thanks Alex.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
Yes, the Pali word "attabhāva" is used in the Suttas often to describe the shape of form in which one is reborn, lit. "self-hood". In one sutta a deva is reborn with a subtle body the size or two or three fields for example.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: "Wherever one's selfhood turns up...."
Thank you, Bhante.gavesako wrote:Yes, the Pali word "attabhāva" is used in the Suttas often to describe the shape of form in which one is reborn, lit. "self-hood". In one sutta a deva is reborn with a subtle body the size or two or three fields for example.
I might like to continue this topic and ask for other reference where-else attabhaava is used in the canon, and also ask about whether the idea of bhava includes different selfhood that "turn up" moment by moment, rather than with the rebirth citta, but not here and not now, especially since it was moved into the Pali corner, not a place for that topic.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)