"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:50 am


PeterB
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby PeterB » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:45 am

But longer term Upekkha may depend on precisely that short term turning away from, with some degree of dispatch.
We are not encouraged to cultivate equanimous feelings to strong attachment..or to be in denial of same.
The trouble is some 21 st century Buddhists are so genteel that they outdo the Buddha in their sensibility.

Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:59 am


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reflection
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby reflection » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:48 am

It arises after 'seeing things as they are', which means stream entry. According to the suttas, stream enterers will be fully enlightened within at most 7 lives. They'll probably fully lose interest in the 5 sense world quite some time before that, this is impreventable. So nibbida is the force that drives them there. It's not like it's a choice. Therefore I would say revulsion is a good term, but a better translation could be repulsion, to emphasize the natural and impreventable aspect of it.

But in the end it is not really important how you translate a word which point to something that can't be explained in words anyway.

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Kim OHara
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:58 am

'Repulsion' is a good suggestion, Reflection - thanks.
But I do think the most accurate possible translation is worthwhile. Language isn't perfect but it's the only medium we have, and an inaccurate translation gives rise to a misleading statement in the second language.

:namaste:
Kim

pulga
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby pulga » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:17 pm

Ven. Ñanamoli translated nibbida as "estrangement". He has a lengthy note on the word in his Three Cardinal Dicourses :

ESTRANGEMENT: the Pali noun nibbida and its verb nibbindati are made up from the prefix nir in its negative sense of “out,” and the root vid (to find, to feel, to know intimately). Nibbida is thus a finding out. What is thus found out is the intimate hidden contradictoriness in any kind of self-identification based in any way on these things (and there is no way of determining self-identification apart from them — see under NOT-SELF). Elsewhere the Buddha says:

Whatever there is there of form, feeling, perception, determinations, or consciousness, such ideas he sees as impermanent, as subject to pain, as a sickness, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as an alienation, as a disintegration, as void, as not-self. He averts his heart from those ideas, and for the most peaceful, the supreme goal, he turns his heart to the deathless element, that is to say, the stilling of all determinations, the relinquishment of all substance, the exhaustion of craving, the fading of passion, cessation, extinction. (MN64)

The “stuff” of life can also be seen thus. Normally the discovery of a contradiction is for the unliberated mind a disagreeable one. Several courses are then open. It can refuse to face it, pretending to itself to the point of full persuasion and belief that no contradiction is there; or one side of the contradiction may be unilaterally affirmed and the other repressed and forgotten; or a temporary compromise may be found (all of which expedients are haunted by insecurity); or else the contradiction may be faced in its truth and made the basis for a movement towards liberation. So too, on finding estrangement thus, two main courses are open: either the search, leaving “craving for self-identification” intact, can be continued for sops to allay the symptoms of the sickness; or else a movement can be started in the direction of a cure for the underlying sickness of craving, and liberation from the everlasting hunt for palliatives, whether for oneself or others. In this sense alone, “Self protection is the protection of others, and protection of others self-protection” (Satipatthana Samyutta).

Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:22 pm


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Alex123
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:02 pm

Hello Geoff,

Very interesting quote above. As I understand it, nibbidā is not reaction toward the object itself, but toward craving or trying to find ultimate sukha for it.

In that case, I think that revulsion is actually a good word, and it is not dosa.

In Pali canon, I've noticed quite a few places where the Buddha, or Sariputta has felt "aṭṭiyāmi harāyāmi jigucchāmi" . How do you think they are to be translated?

In MN152, sekha is supposed to feel "aṭṭīyati harāyati jīgucchati" with whatever feeling arises. What do you think it supposed to mean? These words seem to be as strong, if not stronger than nibbidā.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:49 pm

It seems to me that whatever the intensity towards the object is - whether it be "disenchantment" or "revulsion" - the importance of that is to allow the letting go of (whatever it is we've become disenchanted with/repulsed by). That is, not clinging to it. Having dropped something, if someone wants to put it back in my hands to insist that I have not been sufficiently horrified by it... very well.. let's take another look... yep still not worth clinging to...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

chownah
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:46 am

My interest in discussing the two words is to determine whether it is an arising of passion or a fanning of passion already arisen...or.... if it is a cooling of passion or extinguishment of passion that is intended by the Buddha......for me "disenchantment" would indicate a cooling while "revulsion" would be the arising or fanning of passion.
chownah

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ground
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ground » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:47 am


pulga
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby pulga » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:57 am

The word itself of course represents an experience, so I suppose its meaning might be determined by an individual's predisposition when achieving enlightenment. For one inclined towards upekkha, "disenchantment" might better convey his disillusionment than "revulsion", but it might be quite the opposite for one inclined towards samvega.

Just a thought.

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ground
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ground » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:10 am

Also ... I mean nibbidā is no "one way" in a sense that it directed only towards attachment but it is also towards aversion against an object.

For example:
First one would experience "revulsion" towards the habitual appearance of allure (attachment) in the context of one specific object. If later it might happen that one experiences "revulsion" towards the object as such due to identification of "I" and "mine" with the intent on renunciation then - wise attention assumed - one would experience "revulsion" toward that habitual "I"-making and the aversion it causes.

The causes of attachment and aversion do not inhere in objects but are the manifestations of underlying tendencies. These manifestations are the "right objects" of "revulsion".

Kind regards

Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:32 am


Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:49 am


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Adrien
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Adrien » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:43 am

Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

Nyana
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:02 pm


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Adrien
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Adrien » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:37 pm

Thank you, that's very clear.
Please don't hesitate to correct my english if you feel to

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reflection
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby reflection » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:43 pm


chownah
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:46 am



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