"disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby Dmytro » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:46 am

Hi,

I wrote about this term in the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5562

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby ground » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:07 am

Thanks Dmytro

Dmytro wrote:Therefore the literal translation would be 'satiety' (having enough of, being 'fed up' with'), or in a more figurative sense 'disgust'.


This makes sense.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:49 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
In the Introduction to his SN translation Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
Nibbida, in [MN translation] was translated "disenchantment". However, the word or its cognates is sometimes used in ways which suggest that something stronger is intended. Hence I now translate the noun as "revulsion", and the corresponding verb nibbindati as "to experience revulsion". What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth. Revulsion arises from knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana), and naturally leads to dispassion (viraga) and liberation (vimutti; on the sequence see SN 12.23 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html]).


Ah now here's a monk with experience. He's not talking about Dhamma Lite -in fact, in this case, it is decidedly heavy.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:'Repulsion' is a good suggestion, Reflection - thanks.
But I do think the most accurate possible translation is worthwhile. Language isn't perfect but it's the only medium we have, and an inaccurate translation gives rise to a misleading statement in the second language.

:namaste:
Kim


Repulsion is a great translation!

In more common terms it should lead an 'i'm outta here' type feeling towards all fabrications, mental or otherwise. This is 'muncitukamyata nana'. The nanas/insight corresponding to 'revul/repul-sion are bhanga (dissolution), bhaya (fear) aadinava (drawbacks) and nibbida (repulsion) nana or insight knowledge on the 16 insight knowledges scale. Those terms give even more of a meaning to the term nibbida used by the Buddha. :namaste:

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:16 pm

In regards to Bhikku Bodhi's comment:
"What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth."

According to his view on what the meaning should be i.e. "a calm inward turning away from" (which I definitely agree with) I would say that from my linguistic heritage I would without a doubt choose 'disenchanted' and not 'revulsion'...so I guess it shows that perhaps this is a linguistic heritage issue mostly instead of it being an issue of meaning in at least some cases...i.e. different people will choose differently between the two words for the same meaning based on the way they have heard the two words used throughout their lives.
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:11 am

Disenchantment or Revulsion - which would you choose to describe the result of practicing what is in this sutta:

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Clearly this kind of practice can lead to stream entry - therefore, it is advanced practice, best done with the guidance of a teacher who has experienced thee things themselves.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:26 am

rowyourboat wrote:Disenchantment or Revulsion - which would you choose to describe the result of practicing what is in this sutta:

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Clearly this kind of practice can lead to stream entry - therefore, it is advanced practice, best done with the guidance of a teacher who has experienced thee things themselves.

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Matheesha

If we can trust Bhikku Bodhi on this then I guess we should choose the word from our experience which is " not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth."...so I guess for some it will be one word and for some it will be the other.
I don't know but it MIGHT be that the most important feature of our reaction is the calmness....after all it is supposed to "naturally lead" to dispassion which presumably is a pretty calm state itself....
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:40 am

Hi Chownah

I've had 'dispassion' (viraga) being described as going to a hotel on holiday and finding that it is monsoon time.. or something to that effect. That is, as calming and coming to acceptance of the truly unsatisfactory nature of phenomena.

Dispassion here, is as a result of deep exposure to (weeks, months, continuous) the impermanent nature of all phenomena. It is a flood - taking away with it any notions of of self, any notions of stability, any sense of permanency..

What you are left with -after the flood- is the damaged peace..

..the leftover coasts after the tsunami..

yes, it is a kind of peace, but not the kind you are thinking of. it is peace without the hidden attachment.

..and that is not the end of the practice either- it goes far deeper than that -the ground has been washed away - you are adrift at sea ..with birds circling around you.



All you want to do is get out. :arrow:



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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:30 am

rowyourboat,
My previous post was intended to mostly present Bikkhu Bodhi's view on his definition of nibbida and choice of a word to represent it....that being:
"......
I now translate the noun as "revulsion", and the corresponding verb nibbindati as "to experience revulsion". What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth. ............."

I guess that this means that the view you present of this is different from Bhikku Bodhi's views although I'm not sure as it seems that you have shifted the conversation to dispassion......my only comment was to agree with the calmness aspect presented by Bhikku Bodhi in his discussion of nibbida and his choice of a word to represent it by showing a possible view of support.

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:47 pm

Chownah

Meanings of words can be inferred by understanding the previous mental state which leads up to what the word is talking about, and also the mental state which follows on from that. Both these make further sense of the link in the middle. This is why I was describing viraga/dispassion. Sorry if it was not clear to you..

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:53 pm

The Buddha was not averse to a spot of 'loathing' to get rid of craving:


"Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in what is inconstant, the perception of not-self in what is stressful.

[1] "'The perception of the unattractive, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of the unattractive, his mind shrinks away from the completion of the sexual act, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock's feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of the unattractive, his mind shrinks away from the completion of the sexual act, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of the unattractive, his mind inclines to the completion of the sexual act, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of the unattractive; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of the unattractive, his mind shrinks away from the completion of the sexual act, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of the unattractive; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of the unattractive, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[2] "'The perception of death, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock's feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind inclines to fervor for life, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of death; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of death; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of death, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[3] "'The perception of loathsomeness in food, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of loathsomeness in food, his mind shrinks away from craving for flavors, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock's feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of loathsomeness in food, his mind shrinks away from craving for flavors, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of loathsomeness in food, his mind inclines to craving for flavors, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of loathsomeness in food; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of loathsomeness in food, his mind shrinks away from craving for flavors, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of loathsomeness in food; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of loathsomeness in food, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[4] "'The perception of distaste for every world, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind shrinks away from worldly embellishments, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock's feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind shrinks away from worldly embellishments, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind inclines to worldly embellishments, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of distaste for every world; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of distaste for every world, his mind shrinks away from worldly embellishments, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of distaste for every world; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of distaste for every world, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[5] "'The perception of inconstancy, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind shrinks away from gains, offerings, & fame, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock's feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind shrinks away from gains, offerings, & fame, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind inclines to gains, offerings, & fame, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of inconstancy; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of inconstancy, his mind shrinks away from gains, offerings, & fame, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of inconstancy; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of inconstancy, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[6] "'The perception of stress in what is inconstant, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of stress in what is inconstant, a fierce perception of danger & fear is established in him toward idleness, indolence, laziness, heedlessness, lack of commitment, & lack of reflection, as if toward a murderer with an upraised sword. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of stress in what is inconstant, a fierce perception of danger & fear is not established in him toward idleness, indolence, laziness, heedlessness, lack of commitment, & lack of reflection, as if toward a murderer with an upraised sword, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of stress in what is inconstant; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of stress in what is inconstant, a fierce perception of danger & fear is established in him toward idleness, indolence, laziness, heedlessness, lack of commitment, & lack of reflection, as if toward a murderer with an upraised sword, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of stress in what is inconstant; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of stress in what is inconstant, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

[7] "'The perception of not-self in what is stressful, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has transcended pride, is at peace, and is well-released. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is not devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has not transcended pride, is not at peace, and is not well-released, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has transcended pride, is at peace, and is well-released, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there.

"'The perception of not-self in what is stressful, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:32 am

rowyourboat wrote:Chownah

Meanings of words can be inferred by understanding the previous mental state which leads up to what the word is talking about, and also the mental state which follows on from that. Both these make further sense of the link in the middle. This is why I was describing viraga/dispassion. Sorry if it was not clear to you..

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Matheesha

rowyourboat,
I guess then you are saying that dispassion can be experienced as a flood...a monsoon...a trunami?....and you are presenting this as evidence to infer the meaning of nibidda. Frankly I find it difficult to agree that what you are describing is dispassion. But really what I have been asking is about what Bikkhu Bodhi wrote and was posted earlier...and you have not so far directly addressed the issue. What I am asking is whether you disagree with Bikkhu Bodhi's explanation of nibidda, specifically:
"......
I now translate the noun as "revulsion", and the corresponding verb nibbindati as "to experience revulsion". What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth. ............."
You seem to be of the view that nibbida is not a "calm inward turning awary from...." which is how Bikkhu Bodhi is describing it.
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:48 am

Hi Chownah,

Bikkhu Bodhi has other duties other than being 100% accurate, I think. Isn't it interesting but puzzling at the same time that he chose to keep the word 'revulsion' knowing fully well what it means and what future generations will take away when they read that term, yet describe it in such a watered down way? Wasnt this the same monk who spoke out against dhamma lite? Dhamma lite exists for a reason - this generation us so mired in ignorance that there is no alternative but to give a drip feed of the truth, because anything more- they will vomit it right out. But looking at all the developments in physics very soon, you will have to digest some uncomfortable truths- the field of quantum mechanics are tearing this thing we consider to be reality at an alarming rate. Have you seen this documentary called 'what the bleep do we know'? If you haven't I strongly suggest getting hold of a copy. But I digress- Chownah, I think it is best to make up your own mind. There is little point in expecting 100% truth from anyone else- because ultimately we all have agendas of our own, are driven by defilements even as we speak and type. However I know one person who didn't have any obligations or expectations from the world - he is the Buddha and I suggest that you listen to what he has to say first and foremost - then if what anyone else has to say falls in line with that, it is safe to accept it. What do you think? Does that sound right or wrong to you? :shrug: yes, you will need to know the suttas very well to get at the truth this way - so you will need to spend a lot of time with the suttas- but it is tine well spent because you will otherwise be taken for a little ride. Little bits of misinformation, misunderstandings, wrong interpretations (even misguided translations) will leave you miles (and years) off your intended target which is nibbana- so it is well worth the time getting to know the suttas in and out. It takes less time than you think. Good luck!

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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:36 pm

What do you think? Does that sound right or wrong to you?

rowyourboat,
Sounds like you are lecturing me based on your lack of understanding of me....you seem to think that my last few posts in this thread constitute me wanting you to comment on my opinions I think that my opinions have been scantly represented in those posts and I think that I have made it clear that the topic I want to put forward is that Bikkhu Bodhi's view of nibidda is
"......
I now translate the noun as "revulsion", and the corresponding verb nibbindati as "to experience revulsion". What is intended by this is not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion, but a calm inward turning away from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth. ............."
In this thread there are those who favored "revulsion" and those who favored "disenchantment"....the quote from Bikkhu Bodhi was originally brought up I think it was taken by many that this supported their arguements that "revulsion" was the proper translation. I thought it appropriate to point out that while many choose "revulsion" because it expresses a more reactive and emotional quality that this is not the reason that Bikkhu Bodhi expressed for choosing it...he uses it to express a "calm inward turning away from". This probably is not how most people have experienced this term "revulsion" in their linguisitic histories but it does have a meaning in the dictionary which can be seen to be conisistent with this usage....it is sometimes defined as "a strong pulling or drawing away from: WITHDRAWAL". A withdrawal can be done reactively and in chaos or it can be done calmly...the strenght of a withdrawal does not necessarily indicate its difficulty but rather its resoluteness....nibidda might be described as a "calm and resolute withdrawal from all conditioned existence as comprised in the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and the first noble truth." You may want to take issue with this but please if you do so do not make the thrust of your comment my self....I am presenting this as an explanation of Bikkhu Bodhi's use of the term revulsion and how it can be seen to be consistent with a calm inward turning away....it is within the range of the definitions of "revulsion" it is just not the popularly understood definition....this is probably why Bikkhu Bodhi made the comment, i.e. so that people knew which definition he was using and to not misunderstand his meaning......

I guess the bottom line is that Bikkhu Bodhi is saying that nibidda is a "calm inward turning away form...." and "not a reaction of emotional disgust, accompanied by horror and aversion,".....and it seems that you don't agree with him on this.

Now, if you want to argue and lecture me on something then here is my view so feel free:
If someone experiences agitation or disgust then they are not (in my opinion) experiencing nibbida nor are they experiencing dispassion. It very well may be that experiences arise causing agitation or disgust but it is seeing the dukka of the agitation and disgust which prompts the eventual withdrawal from those experiences...but the withdrawal itself is a calm inward turning away from just as Bikkhu Bodhi describes and that this then leads to dispassion which is a cooling of passions....not an agitated state at all but quite the contrary. If someone is experiencing agitation or disgust it MIGHT be that they are getting a glimpse of "things as they really are".....which according to the schematic way of looking at these things would happen way before nibidda (revulsion or disenchantment...take your pick) and dispassion. The buddha urged one to "train for calm"...if I remember correctly.
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Dear Chownah,

I did not mean to lecture YOU. I was airing my general frustration in a conversation with you - sorry for giving you the impression that it was directed at you- I did not intend it to happen that way.

It is tricky to master effective communication over Internet forums, unfortunately -a bit like learning a new language - you end up offending people. :cry:

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Matheesha
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby chownah » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:56 pm

rowyourboat,
I feel much better knowing that it wasn't directed at me...and I do understand how difficult it can be to communicate difficult ideas clearly in this mediam and how frustrating it can be! Thanks for your reply.

Anyway....In my previous post I did give further explanation of previous discussion and in addition expressed some of my own personal views and do invite your comments....
chownah
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Re: "disenchantment" or "revulsion"?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:17 am

Revulsion from Mahasi Sayadaw's classic vipassana manual 'Progress of Insight'

8. Knowledge of Disgust (Nibbida)  
Seeing thus the misery in conditioned things (formations), his mind finds no delight in those miserable things but is entirely disgusted with them. At times, his mind becomes, as it were, discontented and listless. Even so he does not give up the practice of insight, but spends his time continuously engaging in it. He therefore should know that this state of mind is not dissatisfaction with meditation, but is precisely the "knowledge of disgust" that has the aspect of being disgusted with the formations. Even if he directs his thought to the happiest sort of life and existence, or to the most pleasant and desirable objects, his mind will not take delight in them, will find no satisfaction in them. On the contrary, his mind will incline and lean and tend only towards Nibbana. Therefore the following thought will arise in him between moments of noticing: "The ceasing of all formations that are dissolving from moment to moment — that alone is happiness."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... s.html#ch6

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With Metta

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