masturbation what's wrong?

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Re: Overcoming passion

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:08 pm

Viscid wrote:Masturbation and looking at pornography is practically harmless


Masturbation can be healthy in fact, helping prevent prostate cancer among other things. But health of rupa at what cost for nama? That's perhaps a better place to go looking for the harm, with the same sort of issues cropping up as happen in vegetarian discussions. It's for the layperson to decide.

Porn, however, isn't quite so harmless. In the Anguttara Nikaya, the Buddha says that trade in humans is among the five livelihoods one oughtn't to undertake. Given that porn materials are created in various environments, many exploitative, the porn industry might fit in under 'trade in humans' in this respect, which is one problem. Furthermore, using porn to masturbate trains the mind to see a sexual other as a mere object, a vehicle for one's lust - where is the compassion there, the equanimity even? You can't look at porn while masturbating and practice the brahmaviharas, and that means porn is a choice to abandon the Dhamma, even if only for a few minutes.

This isn't tantrism.

Viscid wrote:you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.


Oh? You probably mean a specific kind of lust, because abandoning lust generally is sort of the point. Which sort of lust doesn't cause suffering, I wonder...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Overcoming passion

Postby Moth » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:28 pm

Viscid wrote:you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.


Lust is a type of craving, and craving is the origin of suffering. As I understand it, a buddhist is a person who is following the Noble Eightfold Path. A person follows the Noble Eightfold Path to uproot the origin of suffering.
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Re: Overcoming passion

Postby Viscid » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:31 pm

Moth wrote:
Viscid wrote:you shouldn't want, and don't need, to overcome lust.


Lust is a type of craving, and craving is the origin of suffering. As I understand it, a buddhist is a person who is following the Noble Eightfold Path. A person follows the Noble Eightfold Path to uproot the origin of suffering.


But he's married! He's supposed to be lusty!
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Overcoming passion

Postby altar » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:02 am

i found tilt and daverupa's posts to be the most interesting and insightful.
They seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum. Tilt's is a watch and observe, gentle approach. Daverupa's is a actually still a watch and observe technique, but keeping in mind the base cause of it, or the mental anguish or boredom one is escaping. I agree, especially theoretically, with this latter technique, of Dave's. However, it doesn't always work because lust can be too strong (passion). Passion coupled with boredom is a hectic state, because one has nothing to do but keeps seeking an outlet. Watching the boredom seems to cause a lot of aversion to arise, i.e., it is easier to let the desire happen, possibly more natural. The apparent trouble then is that one actually does seek to realize their desire. This is I'm looking for a form of balance, which extends throughout the day as well. It's confusing and difficult how to strike a balance between watching desire as it unfolds versus restraint+watching desire not unfold. I guess one way is returning to a samatha object but either desire seems to creep in there, too, or if you completely ban desire it seems unhealthily strict, depending on the specifics.
p.s. I have an unrelated question, is the little dying scarecrow in the bottom right of the emoticons new? I have not noticed it before. edit: I see it is for strawmen.
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby benoit_santerre » Mon May 23, 2011 1:13 pm

The following commentary on the Samma Ditthi Sutta explains in detail what sexual misconduct means (in Therevada Buddhism). The fact it has to involve sex with another person excludes masturbation as a misconduct for lay people. In my understanding, this behavior presents an obstacle to samadhi and liberation, just like addiction to chocolate would, but is not a violation of the precept per say. The precepts are about the principles of harmlessness: i.e. Is anyone being harmed? If it was about avoiding hindrances to liberation, sila would be impractical or very difficult to lay Buddhists: we would have precepts like avoiding good food, sweets, shows, music, dancing, and so forth, some of these which the Buddha prohibited for monks, but not for lay followers.
The five precepts are about very coarse behaviors that create direct harm in obvious ways. Even though one could say indulging in sense pleasures is harmful in that it prolongs Samsara, as said above, if lay precepts were meant to avoid ALL sense attachment, the Buddha would have told lay people to follow monk rules, including complete celibacy. But he did not do that.
Here's the commentary I mentioned above:

Misconduct in sensual pleasures (kamesu micchacara): here, "in sensual pleasures" (kamesu) means in regard to sexual intercourse. "Misconduct" is entirely reprehensible vile conduct. As to characteristic, sexual misconduct is the volition to transgress bounds occurring through the body door by way of unrighteous intent.

Herein, out of bounds for men, firstly, are the twenty kinds of women, that is, the ten beginning with those protected by the mother, namely, "protected by the mother, protected by the father, protected by the mother and father, protected by the brother, protected by the sister, protected by relatives, protected by the clan, protected by the law, under protection, entailing a penalty"; and the ten beginning with those purchased with money, namely, "one purchased with money, one who lives (with a man) by her own desire, one who lives (with a man) on account of wealth, one who lives (with a man) on account of cloth, one who is given (in marriage with the ceremony of) dipping the hand in water, one who has been (taken to wife and) relieved of her burden-carrying head-pad, one who is a slave and a wife, one who is a servant and a wife, one who is carried off in a raid, one engaged at so much a time."[10]

Then, as concerns women, for the twelve kinds of women consisting of the two, namely, under protection and entailing a penalty, and the ten beginning with those purchased with money, other men are out of bounds.

This sexual misconduct is less blameworthy when (the person) out of bounds is without good qualities such as virtue, etc., and more blameworthy when (the person) possesses good qualities such as virtue, etc. There are four constituents of this act: an object which is out of bounds, the mind to engage in that, the effort to engage, and consent to the union of sexual organs.[11] The means is single: one's own person.
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Orlando » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I am beginning to like Ajahn Brahmavamso less and less the more I read of him. His “rejoinder” failed to mention that much of texts he quoted are addressed to monastics, not laity. That is a significant distinction.


He said that he was talking about what is necessary to achieve enlightenment. Most lay people are not as focussed on that as monastics are.
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:47 am

Orlando wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am beginning to like Ajahn Brahmavamso less and less the more I read of him. His “rejoinder” failed to mention that much of texts he quoted are addressed to monastics, not laity. That is a significant distinction.


He said that he was talking about what is necessary to achieve enlightenment. Most lay people are not as focussed on that as monastics are.
Which is exactly the point, which is why Ajahn Brahm's response, in my opinion, was not terribly skillful.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Need help to overcome lust

Postby rb3 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:03 am

Hi there,

I'm a Buddhist who have been out of practice for a couple of years. I'm currently single, 25, and facing huge difficulties in controlling my lust. I used to visit erotic massage parlors to get a quick relief of which I've felt tremendous guilt after the act of done. I've made a vow to the Lord Buddha that I'll never visit these unwholesome outlets again and I've managed to stay true to my vows for 5 months. However, my urges are acting up on me again and the temptation to visit these places are overwhelming. I really need help on this. Is there a more skillful way to overcome these urges? I've tried practicing meditation and I hope it would really help.

Would really appreciate advice from serious practicing Buddhists.

PS: Please don't advice me to get a Girlfriend. I don't want to rush in a relationship, and prefer to wait for the right person to enter into my life. Nor do I feel its moral to get into a relationship in order to satisfy my lustful needs.

Thank you so much.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby David2 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:39 am

Hi rb3,

I would say don't beat yourself up to much... Most people always tend to beat themselves up, that's not good at all.
The sexual urge is nothing you have to be ashamed of.
Make friendship with the urge.

Just relax, try to keep up your meditation practice, and the urge will eventually decrease after some time.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Mr Man » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:07 am

What advice would you like?
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby rb3 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:02 am

Hi David2, thank you for the encouragement. At Mr Man, I would like advice on how to conquer lust without having to visit these massage parlors. I want to learn a healthy way to overcome these urges.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:41 pm

The Buddha taught that to overcome lust one can meditate on the foulness of the body....there is alot of information about this available....look for it and I'm sure you'll find it.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:50 pm

Have you tried masturbation? It is cheap, clean, quick and free of hurt feelings.
You can regulate how much you indulge while you learn to step down.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Nicro » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:32 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Have you tried masturbation? It is cheap, clean, quick and free of hurt feelings.
You can regulate how much you indulge while you learn to step down.


Easiest and most obvious answer.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:20 pm

Sublimation may help -- that is, find some other activities that you can use to channel that energy. Jhanas are said to be more blissful than sensual pleasure, so you could explore that. I personally find that simple calming meditation tends to take the edge off desire.

If I were in your shoes (single) I'd probably take the opportunity to go on a retreat, focus more intensively on meditation practice, or maybe join an organization like Tzu Chi (Buddhist Compassionate Relief).

For things like pornography or "erotic massage parlors", it may be helpful to contemplate the lives of the people involved (i.e. who are providing the services). Think about them as real people -- be aware that they are somebody's child or sibling, and not just a paid pleasure-machine. How would you feel if it was your sister or daughter or mother? You may find that when you keep this in mind, the thrill disappears from these kinds of activities.

If you do need a fantasy outlet -- which is natural and understandable -- I would suggest erotic fiction or artwork, along with masturbation. It will get the job done without harming others in the process. Be aware though, that all forms of fantasy indulgence can lead to some seriously unwholesome mind-states if you become too addicted or lose the distinction between dream and reality.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:51 pm

a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
...
"Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'...

"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions — here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html




Kind regards
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:53 pm

Some people overindulge in sex because they have nothing really in life that they enjoy....except sex.....perhaps doing some introversion and trying to find out what activities (other than sex) are fun and perhaps doing some planning to try to introduce some of them into your schedule could help......think about the stereotype (which is often too close to the truth) of some who just works, sleeps, has sex, and watching tv while drinking beer.....this is just a stereotype but illlustrates the lack of interesting activities in a someones life.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:55 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:For things like pornography or "erotic massage parlors", it may be helpful to contemplate the lives of the people involved (i.e. who are providing the services). Think about them as real people -- be aware that they are somebody's child or sibling, and not just a paid pleasure-machine. How would you feel if it was your sister or daughter or mother? You may find that when you keep this in mind, the thrill disappears from these kinds of activities.


When it comes to women, they are paid well, easy money, and get to show off their beautiful (in a worldly delusional sense) body. I think that when someone criticizes porn stars, s/he is simply jealous of other's proportions, beauty, pleasure, easy money, etc.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:17 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:For things like pornography or "erotic massage parlors", it may be helpful to contemplate the lives of the people involved (i.e. who are providing the services). Think about them as real people -- be aware that they are somebody's child or sibling, and not just a paid pleasure-machine. How would you feel if it was your sister or daughter or mother? You may find that when you keep this in mind, the thrill disappears from these kinds of activities.


When it comes to women, they are paid well, easy money, and get to show off their beautiful (in a worldly delusional sense) body. I think that when someone criticizes porn stars, s/he is simply jealous of other's proportions, beauty, pleasure, easy money, etc.


If it's a fully consensual, non-exploitative situation I wouldn't have a problem with it. From what I've read, though, a fairly high percentage of women in the porn industry have been abused. And if your porn content is coming from the former USSR, Eastern Europe or Asia you're very likely dealing with some pretty shady stuff, i.e. human trafficking and "white slavery".
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:21 pm

Nicro wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Have you tried masturbation? It is cheap, clean, quick and free of hurt feelings.
You can regulate how much you indulge while you learn to step down.


Easiest and most obvious answer.


That is bad advice because it just feeds the recurrence of lust.

_____________

In addition to the contemplations recommened above you may try to refrain from spicy food, avoid meat completely and be very moderate in eating. Interime fasting may be supportive / uposatha style (i.e. not eating after noon).


Kind regards
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