Karmic fruit

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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings SeerObserver,
SeerObserver wrote:Follow that same line and reconcile how someone of clear mind can be born in a war-ridden underdeveloped region dodging bullets to get to the grocery store while someone can be born into palace life and be a deluded individual and vice versa.
What reconciliation is required? The way you speak about these things seems to imply some divine "purpose" or "reason" as to why things occur, similar to a "God's will". That layer of divine conceptualisation is unnecessary and not part of (or in accord with) the Buddha's Dhamma.
SeerObserver wrote:I'm interested to reconcile the OP by Drolma. How do certain people get into certain situations?
Investigate the five niyamas (and leave Berzin at the door) and maybe you'll stop trying to attribute everything to kammic causes. Kamma is intention actional. The universe doesn't live and die by intentional action alone. Comets don't whizz by, and dodge or hit planets based on kamma. The sun doesn't shine because of intentional action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pt1
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by pt1 »

retrofuturist wrote: Investigate the five niyamas
Hi retro, once on e-sangha I asked if anyone knew where did the teaching of Niyamas actually come from, since I didn't come across it in the suttas so far, but nobody knew. I only found references to several relatively modern Burmese teachers. I'm wondering if you have perhaps found the source of this teaching in the meantime?

Thanks
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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings pt1,

The niyamas are only explicitly explained initially in the commentaries, quite possibly as a reaction to the Mahayana suggestion that kamma and dependent origination are indeed the cause of everything in the universe, which is elsewhere rebuked in the Points Of Controversy (venerable Dhammanando has provided reference to this somewhere before). The niyamas are a way of explaining what those non-kammic orders are... they are not an essential teaching in and of themselves, but are an effective means of rebuking incorrect interpretations of Buddhist causality, and show by example that kamma is not the cause of everything.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pt1
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by pt1 »

Thanks retro. The kamma order - which conditions out of the 24 explained in the abhidhamma does it relate to, if any?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings pt1,
pt1 wrote:Thanks retro. The kamma order - which conditions out of the 24 explained in the abhidhamma does it relate to, if any?
The Abhidhamma and the Commentaries certainly aren't my speciality so I wouldn't dare to try to line them up in any kind of way.... other than perhaps to note that there are many paccaya (conditions) mentioned which aren't kamma, and that since kamma is explicitly listed as a condition (as opposed to all 24 of them) then the 24 paccaya classifications are yet another way to make the same point that I'm making using the 5 niyama scheme.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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appicchato
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by appicchato »

Peter wrote:
appicchato wrote:
Peter wrote:I still think you are conflating 'cause' and 'condition'.
The 'condition' is the 'cause'...from this angle anyway...
If that were so, then everyone born into a particular circumstance would perform the exact same actions. However we know this is not the case. Being born into a difficult situation may be a strong condition for acting in an unwholesome way. Nevertheless, some people will act that way and some people will act in other, surprising ways. To say being born into a particular situation is a cause of certain behavior is determinism and denies the Buddha's teachings on karma and intention.
Ahem...might I rephrase that?...the condition may be the cause... :reading:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Karmic fruit

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

If what our Ven. says is not true, then there would be no point to creating positive conditions for future exposure to dharma.

Therefore I must conclude that it is true. Conditions may be a cause under the right circumstances.
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