Why not ordain?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Its not an article, it is a book ( 66 pages ), but one well worth reading even with the understanding that Ven Dhammika's experiences described there are a decade old and that they might not reflect every experience that could be had.

The reasons for getting ordained would be to have your basic needs met while getting support for

- meditating at least 4 hours a day during prime hours
- support for very long retreats
- support for studying the suttas
- support for living in an ethical way, by your own ethics in addition to the sanghas
- being around meditation teachers and people striving for the same things you are

A single person could probably manage their commitments to work a job, get 2 hours of meditation in a day during the week, more on the weekend and a 1-2 retreats a year. So, if someone isn't getting the list of things above from a Sangha it probably wouldn't be worth it to become a monk.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Basileaux
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Basileaux »

I ordained for about a year in NE Thailand. I was 20 and immature. The hardest part, and I think this is crucial, was that I lacked the ability to really navigate my way through my problems. An example of this is when one meditates for a long period of time, a sense of loneliness can arise making one think, "Is this all my life's going to be? Just walking back and forth of this meditation path here?" Well, when I was younger, I was unable to really reflect on whether this was a valid feeling or not. So I'd go back to the "fun" of the monastery- the conversations and cheese, and feel the resulting discordance from that. I'd go days meditating, but I would always be pulled off track by my feelings of social obligations etc... Without a practice to live for, I ended up disrobing.

So I've spent the past 5 years learning to reflect on these things. I always had in mind the idea that I just need some time before I can ordain again. I think that time is close.

So anyways, great to find this forum, Sadhu to the community here who strives to follow the Buddhist teachings. May you all develop quickly and gain solid ground on the path!
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Basileaux wrote:I ordained for about a year in NE Thailand. I was 20 and immature. The hardest part, and I think this is crucial, was that I lacked the ability to really navigate my way through my problems. An example of this is when one meditates for a long period of time, a sense of loneliness can arise making one think, "Is this all my life's going to be? Just walking back and forth of this meditation path here?" Well, when I was younger, I was unable to really reflect on whether this was a valid feeling or not. So I'd go back to the "fun" of the monastery- the conversations and cheese, and feel the resulting discordance from that. I'd go days meditating, but I would always be pulled off track by my feelings of social obligations etc... Without a practice to live for, I ended up disrobing.

So I've spent the past 5 years learning to reflect on these things. I always had in mind the idea that I just need some time before I can ordain again. I think that time is close.

So anyways, great to find this forum, Sadhu to the community here who strives to follow the Buddhist teachings. May you all develop quickly and gain solid ground on the path!
Basileaux;

I thought you showed a lot of advanced judgment. 20 is a young age to turn away from life. The only life we are certain about is this one. All else is religion.

The whole point in ordaining would be to meditate a lot more and get more support for it. Those things weren't happening so your decision to disrobe was a smart one.


Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interesting account.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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ground
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by ground »

Jhana4 wrote:The only life we are certain about is this one. All else is religion.
This one is the only life to cling to right now. And for those who feel aversion when the thought "religion" arises "religion" may be an appropriate term to do away with much that is disliked (i.e. there is an uncomfortable feeling involved).

Kind regards
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Ytrog
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Ytrog »

Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.
I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
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rowyourboat
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by rowyourboat »

Ytrog wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.
I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.
This is correct.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Ytrog wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.
I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.
I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
beeblebrox
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by beeblebrox »

Jhana4 wrote:
Ytrog wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.
I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.
I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
I don't want to put you on the spot, but what do you think of Ven. Gunaratana?

:anjali:
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

I only met him once. I think he is an extraordinarily intelligent man with good character. I have no idea what his internal life is or has been.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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bodom
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by bodom »

Jhana4 wrote:I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from others. :smile:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

Some things you have to learn for yourself. Plenty of quotes in the Canon about learning with the intellect not being enough to move through the dhamma.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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bodom
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by bodom »

Jhana4 wrote:Some things you have to learn for yourself. Plenty of quotes in the Canon about learning with the intellect not being enough to move through the dhamma.
Could you provide a source from the canon that supports this view of yours:
I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
Or is this from your own experience of having ordained in the past?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by bodom »

jhana4 wrote:I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
And please consider the words of Ajahn Chah, who while never having a family of his own, seen the dangers inherent in the household life, ordained, and was able to fully realize the Dhamma:
Now I'm just talking because I've never had a family before. Why haven't I had a family? Just looking at this word "household",I knew what it was all about. What is a "household"? This is a "hold": If somebody were to get some rope and tie us up while we were sitting here, what would that be like? That's called "being held." Whatever that's like, "being held" is like that. There is a circle of confinement. The man lives within his circle of confinement, and the woman lives within her circle of confinement.

When I read this word "household"... this is a heavy one. This word is no trifling matter, it's a real killer. The word "hold" is a symbol of suffering. You can't go anywhere, you've got to stay within your circle of confinement.

Now we come to the word "house." This means "that which hassles." Have you ever toasted chilies? The whole house chokes and sneezes. This word "household" spells confusion, it's not worth the trouble. Because of this word I was able to ordain and not disrobe. "Household" is frightening. You're stuck and can't go anywhere. Problems with the children, with money and all the rest. But where can you go? You're tied down. There are sons and daughters, arguments in profusion until your dying day, and there's nowhere else to go to no matter how much suffering it is. The tears pour out and they keep pouring. The tears will never be finished with his "household," you know. If there's no household you might be able to finish with the tears but not otherwise.

Consider this matter. If you haven't come across it yet you may later on. Some people have experienced it already to a certain extent. Some are already at the end of their tether..."Will I stay or will I go?" At Wat Ba Pong there are about seventy or eighty huts (kuti). when they're almost full I tell the monk in charge to keep a few empty, just in case somebody has an argument with their spouse... Sure enough, in no long time a lady will arrive with her bags..."I'm fed up with the world, Luang Por." "Whoa! Don't say that. Those words are really heavy." Then the husband comes and says he's fed up too. After two or three days in the monastery their world-weariness disappears.

They say they're fed up but they're just fooling themselves. When they go off to a kuti and sit in the quiet by themselves, after a while the thoughts come..."When's the wife going to come and ask me to go home?" They don't really know what's going on. What is this "world-weariness" of theirs? They get upset over something and come running to the monastery. At home everything looked wrong... the husband was wrong, the wife was wrong... after three days' quiet thinking..."Hmmm, the wife was right after all, it was I who was wrong." "Hubby was right, I shouldn't have got so upset." They change sides. This is how it is, that's why I don't take the world too seriously. I know its ins and outs already, that's why I've chosen to live as a monk.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... .html#fn-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by bodom »

beeblebrox wrote:I don't want to put you on the spot, but what do you think of Ven. Gunaratana?

:anjali:
Ordained at the age of 12 and now has 72 years in robes! Amazing! What a wealth of wisdom Venerable Bhante Gunaratatana is.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Jhana4
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Re: Why not ordain?

Post by Jhana4 »

bodom wrote:
jhana4 wrote:I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.
And please consider the words of Ajahn Chah, who while never having a family of his own, seen the dangers inherent in the household life, ordained, and was able to fully realize the Dhamma:
I think it is less likely for someone in robes to speak against someone very young being put into robes, especially if that is the culture they come from.

My opinion isn't just about having a family or being a householder. It is about being part of the world before renouncing it. As far as that goes I think some ages are just too young, regardless of exceptions that have done well.

No disrespect.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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