the great vegetarian debate

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:05 am

Hi Pink, Hi Nathan

I actually agree largely with Pink on this one. We can't divorce ourselves from our role and responsibility with regard to our environment on the basis that it is the operation of samsara or communal vipaka. My contention is that one cannot engage in self-liberation without also pursuing the mundane and supramundane liberation of our fellow co-habitants in this fragile realm.

Hi Sung Low

Covert indeed! Its one of the reasons why my kids call me 'the evil one' in the mould of the Mephistopholean 'Dr No' from Austen Powers.
Breakfasts in this household are usually vegetarian. Having just served up tofu and vegetables in a thai yellow curry, my wife and kids are no wiser to my wild vegie plans! Mua-ha-ha!!
Metta

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby appicchato » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:06 am

Ben wrote:Having just served up tofu and vegetables in a thai yellow curry, my wife and kids are no wiser to my wild vegie plans! Mua-ha-ha!!

Good on ya Ben... :thumbsup:
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:43 pm

Ben wrote:Breakfasts in this household are usually vegetarian. Having just served up tofu and vegetables in a thai yellow curry, my wife and kids are no wiser to my wild vegie plans! Mua-ha-ha!!

:jumping: :rolleye: :thumbsup:

Good job, Ben.

When I lived in Israel for two years (during high school) I ate falafel, pita sandwiches of grilled veggies, avocado sandwiches, and other 'Mediterranean' foods. According to Jewish kosher laws you don't mix meat and dairy, so when we ate lasagna and pizza, it was always dairy only, no meat. I was not a vegetarian at the time, but many years later after becoming a vegetarian I realized that I was sort of a vegetarian during those times. I never thought about it at the time, the food was still good and tasty.

In the same way, I think it can be done covertly the way you are doing. Just make healthy stuff that is also delicious and they will probably not complain.
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby pink_trike » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:31 pm

Just stay away from the faux meat products. :jawdrop:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby SeerObserver » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:45 pm

appicchato wrote:
Ben wrote:Having just served up tofu and vegetables in a thai yellow curry, my wife and kids are no wiser to my wild vegie plans! Mua-ha-ha!!

Good on ya Ben... :thumbsup:

TheDhamma wrote:
Ben wrote:Breakfasts in this household are usually vegetarian. Having just served up tofu and vegetables in a thai yellow curry, my wife and kids are no wiser to my wild vegie plans! Mua-ha-ha!!

:jumping: :rolleye: :thumbsup:

Good job, Ben.
TheDhamma wrote:In the same way, I think it can be done covertly the way you are doing.

Two endorsements...Of all the possible threads there could be to find out how much of a rapscallion some of the others on your forum are.

TheDhamma wrote:When I lived in Israel for two years (during high school) I ate falafel, pita sandwiches of grilled veggies, avocado sandwiches, and other 'Mediterranean' foods. According to Jewish kosher laws you don't mix meat and dairy, so when we ate lasagna and pizza, it was always dairy only, no meat. I was not a vegetarian at the time, but many years later after becoming a vegetarian I realized that I was sort of a vegetarian during those times. I never thought about it at the time, the food was still good and tasty.

In the same way, I think it can be done covertly the way you are doing. Just make healthy stuff that is also delicious and they will probably not complain.

Seriously though this is a good strategy that I will put into place at least from time to time to reduce, if not eliminate, my meat consumption.

Fortunately this very example can be put into place in my situation since I'm already a fan of Mediterranean fare and the like. Pita, baba ghanoush, hummus, etc. hit the spot. And I even prefer Feta for great breakfast eggs/omlettes over the standard cheese. Of course there's a Thai voice that tells me to cilantro it all up.

If you have a fairly broad taste like mine, you can really be vegetarian with a wide selection of original design entrees (not using substitutes like tofurkey) if you just take dishes from lots of different cultures that already happen to be vegetarian. And get with food of people that are heavily vegetarian by culture like Indians. Hit someone up for some samosas and cilantro chutney.
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby SeerObserver » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:50 pm

pink_trike wrote:Just stay away from the faux meat products. :jawdrop:

I was just thinking along similar lines. But it's not because I don't like them, I would just rather take an approach where everything I'm eating is vegetarian by design. That way I'm eating the authentic dish the way it was intended without any taste or ingredient compromise.

So you say this for another reason? Do you just not like them, or do you know them to be unhealthy in their own ways?
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby nathan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:09 pm

pink_trike wrote:If you have a better view, lay it on me...I'm open to it.
Sure. There is no 'we' just as there is no 'me'. There is a meat-resonating-device like the skin of an apple on the surface of the earth. You are more than welcome to remain a part of it for as long as you like. You can identify with 'me', 'we' or 'it' forever if you wish. It isn't any more or less than what it is if you don't. As you will then.
:namaste:
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby pink_trike » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:13 pm

SeerObserver wrote:
pink_trike wrote:So you say this for another reason? Do you just not like them, or do you know them to be unhealthy in their own ways?


I'm not very fussy about food, but this body doesn't like the faux meat thingies at all and expresses it's dislike clearly. :toilet:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:11 am

pink_trike wrote:
SeerObserver wrote:
pink_trike wrote:So you say this for another reason? Do you just not like them, or do you know them to be unhealthy in their own ways?


I'm not very fussy about food, but this body doesn't like the faux meat thingies at all and expresses it's dislike clearly. :toilet:


I quite like some of them but I have had a bad experiance before!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby pink_trike » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:28 am

appicchato wrote:
pink_trike wrote:"A day without meat" is, imo, not a good idea...a short-term, "feel good" bandaid. In lickity-split time, "A day without meat" will become something like Christmas...one day a year when a lot of people are "generous" - this is what happens in our mediatized culture.

Looked at in this light, I wouldn't (completely) disagree...also, looked at in a different light it could be a good thing...human nature being what it is (having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to 'change'), we've got to start somewhere...even 'A meal without meat' would be a plus...

My intention here wasn't to plug this idea, only to highlight the numbers involved...

Vegi, or not, we're all on our way out... :pig:

Be well...


Yes, you may be right. I hope you are.
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Union is Great Bliss

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby pink_trike » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:42 am

nathan wrote:
pink_trike wrote:If you have a better view, lay it on me...I'm open to it.
Sure. There is no 'we' just as there is no 'me'. There is a meat-resonating-device like the skin of an apple on the surface of the earth. You are more than welcome to remain a part of it for as long as you like. You can identify with 'me', 'we' or 'it' forever if you wish. It isn't any more or less than what it is if you don't. As you will then.
:namaste:

Of course there is no "me", "we", or "it. Good on you for noticing. But what you haven't seemed to notice is that not everyone else has. So the best we can probably do is model behavior that mirrors the essence of the teachings, if not the letter. That isn't just pretend suffering we're inflicting on living beings. We have the potential to stop doing it. Right here, right now. We can model this for others. All humans are monkeys...so let's use the "monkey see, monkey do" phenomenon wisely.
Vision is Mind
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Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby Ben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:15 am

Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement!

Thanks Pink for the advice:

pink_trike wrote:Just stay away from the faux meat products. :jawdrop:


I've always shied away from faux meat products like soy sausages and think something called 'tofuturkey' sounds like its a scream! We don't get it here in Australia - thankfully! The closest I've come to a faux meat product was seitan which I used to make myself in my macrobiotic days over twenty years ago. My then girlfriend bought a small electric grain mill and we would buy whole wheat, grind it ourselves and process our own seitan. It would take all day but it was fun.
Tonight was another success. I made a vegetable and bean stew seasoned with chermoulah served on basmati rice. my eight-year-old approved of it and the 14-year-old went back for seconds.
Cheers

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:51 am

There's a Mahayana Art Gallery in the city of Melbourne that does some decent mock-meat food.

Alas, the menu has shrunk over the last few months... but it's still pretty good.

:stirthepot:

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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby Jechbi » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:03 pm

This is a great thread, with some excellent points in my opinion. But I do wonder where Kathy Freston got her stats. Many of them seem suspect.

There are seven pages of comments associated with her article over at The Huffington Post. Worth browsing. Here's her bio:
Kathy Freston is a self-help author and personal growth and spirituality counselor. She is the author of "The One: Discovering the Secrets of Soul Mate Love" and "Expect a Miracle: Seven Spiritual Steps to Finding the Right Relationship." Her Transformational Meditation CDs offering guided meditations have been featured in W, Self, and Mode. Kathy’s recent television appearances include, “Martha,” “The View,” and “The CBS Early Show.”


Not in any way to diminish the point of the OP, which is right on target (thank you, Venerable). But I tried to check out the stats on snopes.com and found nothing relevant. Can anyone verify Freston's numbers or find their source?

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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:36 pm

appicchato wrote:If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would save: :pig:

● 100 billion gallons of water, enough to supply all the homes in New England for almost 4 months;

● 1.5 billion pounds of crops otherwise fed to livestock, enough to feed the state of New Mexico for more than a year;

● 70 million gallons of gas--enough to fuel all the cars of Canada and Mexico combined with plenty to spare;

● 3 million acres of land, an area more than twice the size of Delaware;

● 33 tons of antibiotics.

If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would prevent:

● Greenhouse gas emissions equivalent to 1.2 million tons of CO2, as much as produced by all of France;

● 3 million tons of soil erosion and $70 million in resulting economic damages;

● 4.5 million tons of animal excrement;

● Almost 7 tons of ammonia emissions, a major air pollutant.

My favorite statistic is this: According to Environmental Defense, if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods instead, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as taking more than half a million cars off of U.S. roads. See how easy it is to make an impact?l


Bhante these numbers are amazing. Thanks a lot :namaste:
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Postby nathan » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:54 pm

pink_trike wrote:
nathan wrote:
pink_trike wrote:If you have a better view, lay it on me...I'm open to it.
Sure. There is no 'we' just as there is no 'me'. There is a meat-resonating-device like the skin of an apple on the surface of the earth. You are more than welcome to remain a part of it for as long as you like. You can identify with 'me', 'we' or 'it' forever if you wish. It isn't any more or less than what it is if you don't. As you will then.
:namaste:

Of course there is no "me", "we", or "it. Good on you for noticing. But what you haven't seemed to notice is that not everyone else has. So the best we can probably do is model behavior that mirrors the essence of the teachings, if not the letter. That isn't just pretend suffering we're inflicting on living beings. We have the potential to stop doing it. Right here, right now. We can model this for others. All humans are monkeys...so let's use the "monkey see, monkey do" phenomenon wisely.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted in the thread Mr. Trike. I'm simply not optimistic about any of this as I have been working in these kinds of areas quite actively for decades now. Unfortunately those of us who are 'modeling' all sorts of alternatives are not considered 'models' by more than a handful (we DO continue in it regardless of quantitative results) of the mass of monkeys who are filing sheep-like towards their corporate slaughter and it will be messy for all of us, like it or not. I have no difficulty at all envisioning the future the Buddha describes for us (in, I wish I could remember which sutta it is!) wherein the human species, alone, is reduced to living underground in a world with no sunlight, feeding upon each other, and dying before ten years of age. I don't see any indications yet of any viable counter-currents running against the strong current of human and world affairs which appears inexorably compelled to take things in this direction. The sun looks particularly brilliant at sunset, so to speak. I hope to be proven wrong of course but would rather continue to present things unflinchingly in 'these terms' for the 'monkeys'. I consider it, 'fair warning'.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:28 am

I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/

sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!

Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:08 am

but what is the bone density of the average lay person who is vegan or vegi?

there are studies which show that these diets don't necesarily negatively affect bone density in a way which would cause problems later in life such as osteoporosis but none which show bone weight to be on a par with meat eaters.

what has more caffene, 1kg of coffee beans or 1kn of tea leaves? tea leaves
what has more caffene one cup of coffee or one cup of tea? one cup of coffee
Edit - just to show that apearences can be deceiving when it comes to actual intake, in comparison to volume comparison

here is a snippet of an article http://cbs2.com/optimumwellness/Bone.De ... 01849.html
Many people, including most physicians, suggest that vegans are at risk for osteoporosis due to their lower protein and calcium intake. In this study, the vegan woman averaged about 370 milligrams of calcium in their daily diet. The current recommended level is 1000 milligrams daily. Non dairy and non-animal sources of calcium include fortified orange juice, fortified cereal, white beans and most beans, tofu, nuts and seeds, carob, dark green leafy veggies (especially collards, turnip greens, beet greens), figs, rhubarb, butternut squash, acorn squash, and molasses. Keep in mind that bone health and integrity does not depend on calcium alone.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby Individual » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:10 pm

TheDhamma wrote:I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/

sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!

Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).

Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:58 pm

Individual wrote:Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)

The article did not say how long they have been vegans, but it did mention that the non-vegans were of the same age.

The nuns did not have significantly less bone density from the other group, which was from the average population, same ages as the nuns.
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