"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:34 pm

Hello all,

In the suttas it often talks about many benefits of contemplating rise and fall. But the instructions He gives seem to imply that one thinks about it.

"There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance." " " - MN10

Patisambhidamagga also has this concluding statement:"Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that."


Is it like the instructions in AN5.57 that imply that this is done discursively?


If it is done discursively then whenever a certain, lets say strong feeling (such as pain) is felt, does one then mentally considers its rise and fall?

Or does one keep mentally considering in detail the general rise and fall nature of aggregates like said in those suttas?






"iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthagamo. Iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthagamo. Itisaññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthagamo. Iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ. Atthagamo. Iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthagamo"ti
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?
"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form [alex: and all other 4 aggregates]. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates], there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"And what is the disappearance of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness?
"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened. And what does one not enjoy or welcome, to what does one not remain fastened? One doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates]. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates], any delight in form ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:07 pm

Hi Alex,

I don't think it's a matter of "thinking about it", it's a matter of developing mindfulness and samadhi to a sufficient degree to experience it.

As Ven Analayo says in the article mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8741
Another object of contemplation of dharmas in the Satipaṭṭhāna-sutta are the
six sense-spheres. With higher stages in the practice of contemplation of vedanā,
it becomes possible to remain well grounded in awareness of bodily sensations
with whatever happens at any sense-door.Undertaken in this way, meditative
practice yields a comprehensive and continuous awareness of impermanence.

Such a mode of practice could also be implicit in a description in the dis-
courses, according to which mindfulness and clear comprehension (satisampa-
jañña) can be developed by clearly knowing:
- feelings as they arise, remain and pass away;
- perceptions as they arise, remain and pass away;
- thoughts as they arise, remain and pass away.

The progression from feelings to perceptions and thoughts in this description
could be significant, since once awareness of the impermanence of feelings is well
established, the arising of any perception or thought becomes naturally part of the
overall experience of impermanence that remains rooted in contemplation of ve-
danā.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:52 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

In the suttas it often talks about many benefits of contemplating rise and fall. But the instructions He gives seem to imply that one thinks about it.

"There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance." " " - MN10

Patisambhidamagga also has this concluding statement:"Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that."


Is it like the instructions in AN5.57 that imply that this is done discursively?


If it is done discursively then whenever a certain, lets say strong feeling (such as pain) is felt, does one then mentally considers its rise and fall?

Or does one keep mentally considering in detail the general rise and fall nature of aggregates like said in those suttas?






"iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthagamo. Iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthagamo. Itisaññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthagamo. Iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ. Atthagamo. Iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthagamo"ti
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?
"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form [alex: and all other 4 aggregates]. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates], there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"And what is the disappearance of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness?
"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened. And what does one not enjoy or welcome, to what does one not remain fastened? One doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates]. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form [alex: and other 4 aggregates], any delight in form ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Hi,

I don't see how the practice could begin without discursive thought, that is not to say that discursive thought does not fade away as meditation deepens. The sutta you quoted is an example of this, 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance." " "[/i] - MN10. Now at a certain stage these things might be known without discursive thought but how could origination "be known" initially without a discursive approach.

An example I like to read is........................

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property?}[3] Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html

I think that meditation can sometimes be turned into an esoteric ritual rather than a contemplation of the Dhamma with the faculties that we are blessed with, and the thinking mind is a great blessing. Only when we enter the 2nd jhana do we realise that thinking is also a bit of a pain and that the mind has the ability to "know" and "discern" without engaging our usual thought processes. Trying to get to this point without discursive thought is a bit like wanting to walk the 8NP but not being prepared to put in the spade work first. Right view at the start of the practice does not appear through a meditative technique but through contemplation and discerning your own circumstances and others circumstances and the way of the world. I have found that even before jhana, discursive thinking starts to become more subtle and less "verbal" but I think it is a mistake to try and start a meditation with the initial idea of relegating thoughts(wholesome) to an unwanted hindrance. They are only classed as an impediment when moving from the 1st to the 2nd jhana. One of the "dangers" in jhana is that the mind can become intoxicated with thoughts of the dhamma and the final goal is not achieved, I think at this level you may have already achieved a certain level. ( I can't remember which sutta this is from).
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:15 pm

Hello Legolas, all,


You are right. Many suttas if read in pali, do literally say to "think this, think that". They do use direct quotation marks. Many of meditations (ex: AN5.57) cannot be done non-verbally, and yet do lead to awakening. It seems that not-thinking (or not perceiving) is not the goal that one tries to achieve. One needs to make all taṇhā fade, extinguish and fade down. Not every thought is an expression of taṇhā or avijjā. Some thoughts can be wholesome and some unwholesome. It seems possible that proper kinds of thinking do lead to fading away of fetters.

""Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality....
"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding.
" - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"The Blessed One said: "When a monk is intent on the heightened mind, there are five themes he should attend to at the appropriate times. Which five?
"Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress.
" - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.
"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...
"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...
"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ...
"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...
...
When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello Legolas, all,


You are right. Many suttas if read in pali, do literally say to "think this, think that".
Thinking has it place, but it is still conceptual though and all that goes with it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Hello Legolas, all,


You are right. Many suttas if read in pali, do literally say to "think this, think that".
Thinking has it place, but it is still conceptual though and all that goes with it.


Any word is conceptual. The Buddha Himself was able to think, to teach and to argue when pressed. He didn't become a a happy clam or a piece of log.

The purpose of meditation is to remove taṇhā, avijjā and all the kilesas that originate from them that cause dukkha. Thinking, or thought itself, is not akusala. Even Buddha could and did think. Certain kinds of thoughts (such as outlined in AN5.57) are beneficial. The problem is when thinking is due to taṇhā & avijjā and runs out of very circumscribed bounds.

In Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ there is instruction such as:
When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.'
Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vediyamāno 'sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vediyāmī'ti pajānāti.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It is interesting that direct quotation "'ti" is used. As I understand, it signifies something that is said (or thought). Same is with rise & fall formula.

iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthagamo. iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthagamo. itisaññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthagamo. iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ. Atthagamo. iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthagamo"ti

Many other contemplations in Satipaṭṭhāna imply the use of discursive thought. There is no way you can contemplate, lets say "31 bodyparts" without using at least some sort of inner verbalization
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:46 pm

Alex123 wrote:Many other contemplations in Satipaṭṭhāna imply the use of discursive thought. There is no way you can contemplate, lets say "31 bodyparts" without using at least some sort of inner verbalization
However, conceptual thought is conceptual thought and it does have its place, but it is not quite the same as seeing the arise and fall as it happens without the mediation of conceptual thought. Very different experiences.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:26 pm

Possibly one of the most straightforward approaches to jhana is this.......

"Anuruddha, when you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then — whenever you want — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, you will enter & remain in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. When you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then — whenever you want — with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, you will enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance... with the fading of rapture, you will remain in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive to pleasure. You will enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' When you think these eight thoughts of a great person, then — whenever you want — with the abandoning of pleasure & pain, as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress, you will enter & remain in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.030.than.html

The above does not mean that mindfulness of body, feelings etc. is not practised in parallel with the discursive thinking, more that they flow into each other. A wholesome thought that arises and persists could develop into rapture and away you go with deepening mindfulness and jhana. The discursive thinking subsides and 2nd jhana is attained. However the discursive thoughts are the instigators for the whole process. Second jhana and above might be great and the mind is still & unified, but the Buddha seems to be teaching that you get there, not by intense focus but by a gradual unification of the faculties facilitated by thought.
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Reductor » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:56 pm

Sadhu! I have found thinking steadily on dhamma topics or themes to be most reliable path to wholesome unification of mind.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:50 am

Hello all,

I was thinking about it. And the only way it seems likely to me that doesn't involve thinking would be:

To notice the empty space between two thoughts, when one thought has ceased and another thought has not yet arisen. Same with internal images, emotions and other mental states. Try to observe what happens in that split second before a thought or any other mental state arises.


With metta,

Alex
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:56 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

I was thinking about it. And the only way it seems likely to me that doesn't involve thinking would be:

To notice the empty space between two thoughts, when one thought has ceased and another thought has not yet arisen. Same with internal images, emotions and other mental states. Try to observe what happens in that split second before a thought or any other mental state arises.


With metta,

Alex
Good luck with that; however, one can notice quite clearly, when one's concentration and mindfulness are apporopriately cultivated, the rise and fall of "only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized" without "thinking."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:20 am

I agree with Tilt. I'm a relative amateur compared to some people here, but my experience is that after several days on silent retreat building up mindfulness and concentration it's really not that difficult to get some idea of what the Buddha was talking about. If you attend closely then there will be times when the experiences start to break up into discrete chunks. This is perceived, then that is perceived, and so on. No need to think about it, that's just what you "see".

As far as I can tell from discussions in "real life" and here, most people who do some moderately serious practice have these sort of experiences. However, exactly how they manifest seems to depend on the individual and on the particular approach being used.

I don't want to come across as condescending, but I know from my own experience that I can discern things after several days of retreat that are simply not noticeable in my "normal life", where I generally only have an hour or so for specific mediation practice each day. Trying to decide what the Buddha taught about "rise and fall" by just reading suttas, and not actually making the attempt to experience what he talks about, doesn't seem to me to be particularly fruitful.

:anjali:
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:I agree with Tilt. I'm a relative amateur compared to some people here, but my experience is that after several days on silent retreat building up mindfulness and concentration it's really not that difficult to get some idea of what the Buddha was talking about. If you attend closely then there will be times when the experiences start to break up into discrete chunks. This is perceived, then that is perceived, and so on. No need to think about it, that's just what you "see".

As far as I can tell from discussions in "real life" and here, most people who do some moderately serious practice have these sort of experiences. However, exactly how they manifest seems to depend on the individual and on the particular approach being used.

I don't want to come across as condescending, but I know from my own experience that I can discern things after several days of retreat that are simply not noticeable in my "normal life", where I generally only have an hour or so for specific mediation practice each day. Trying to decide what the Buddha taught about "rise and fall" by just reading suttas, and not actually making the attempt to experience what he talks about, doesn't seem to me to be particularly fruitful.

:anjali:
Mike


Hi Mike,

I agree. However I dont think anybody is seriously advocating that. I certainly am not.
However people practise the four foundations is up to them. I personally view the foundations as how we experience the world and any attempt to compartmentalise the body from thought contents or feelings or the minds disposition is very restrictive. All four foundations flow into each other and to begin attempts at meditation with the aim of blocking off one of these foundations i.e. thought, would seem to be setting oneself up to experience a distorted view of the world. A more structured approach would be to view the foundations as a unifying process within the meditative practise whereby thoughts are the driving force to get the whole thing going. Only when the mind has calmed and become more subtle is it realistic to talk about abandoning thoughts and being non-discursive.
As a question, can you point to any sutta where the Buddha states that thoughts subside other than the 2nd jhana and above?
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:48 am

legolas wrote:As a question, can you point to any sutta where the Buddha states that thoughts subside other than the 2nd jhana and above?
If it takes the second jhana for thoughts to subside, then the 2nd jhana certainly is not at all unknown to experienced vipassana practitioners in long term retreats who experience periods of quiescence and clear awareness where the thinking process comes to a rest. This is not at all uncommon.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:As a question, can you point to any sutta where the Buddha states that thoughts subside other than the 2nd jhana and above?
If it takes the second jhana for thoughts to subside, then the 2nd jhana certainly is not at all unknown to experienced vipassana practitioners in long term retreats who experience periods of quiescence and clear awareness where the thinking process comes to a rest. This is not at all uncommon.


I honestly can't comment on whether they are in 2nd jhana or not. However if one approaches the meditation with a view that thought is a hindrance and must be abandoned right at the beginning then perhaps there is more suppression(jhana) going on rather than abandoning - I don't know.
I take it that you are in agreement with me that there is no sutta where thought subsides other than when 2nd jhana and above is attained.
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:41 am

mikenz66 wrote: If you attend closely then there will be times when the experiences start to break up into discrete chunks. This is perceived, then that is perceived, and so on. No need to think about it, that's just what you "see".


I tend to agree. I use simple labelling to note experiences arising in the initial stages, but as my mind calms down properly it's more like just noticing what's going on - how stuff comes and goes.

Spiny
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:59 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:As a question, can you point to any sutta where the Buddha states that thoughts subside other than the 2nd jhana and above?
If it takes the second jhana for thoughts to subside, then the 2nd jhana certainly is not at all unknown to experienced vipassana practitioners in long term retreats who experience periods of quiescence and clear awareness where the thinking process comes to a rest. This is not at all uncommon.


I honestly can't comment on whether they are in 2nd jhana or not. However if one approaches the meditation with a view that thought is a hindrance and must be abandoned right at the beginning then perhaps there is more suppression(jhana) going on rather than abandoning - I don't know.
I take it that you are in agreement with me that there is no sutta where thought subsides other than when 2nd jhana and above is attained.
I guess it depends upon what you mean by "thought subsides." But as I have said before, elsewhere, while there might be a hindrance, that does not mean it has to, by absolute necessity, hinder anything. If that were the case, awakening would not be possible:

Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be. -- MN 10
This not an intellectual process; rather, it is a matter of concentrated attention as the process unfolds.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:00 am

Alex123 wrote:In Satipaṭṭhānasuttaṃ there is instruction such as:
When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.'


I take this to be consistent with the use of simple labelling or noting, and primarily related to mindfulness "off the cushion". But I know people have different ideas about this. :smile:

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:01 am

legolas wrote:I take it that you are in agreement with me that there is no sutta where thought subsides other than when 2nd jhana and above is attained.

I'm not sure what you mean by "subside". Perhaps you're talking about ceasing completely. That doesn't seem relevant to the current discussion. There are a number of suttas that talk about observing the arising and passing away of thoughts, among other things...
AN 4.41 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.


:anjali:
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:05 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:I take it that you are in agreement with me that there is no sutta where thought subsides other than when 2nd jhana and above is attained.

I'm not sure what you mean by "subside". Perhaps you're talking about ceasing completely. That doesn't seem relevant to the current discussion. There are a number of suttas that talk about observing the arising and passing away of thoughts, among other things...
AN 4.41 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.


:anjali:
Mike



Thoughts subsiding/free from......

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html
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