"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Let us not forget, however, that the Buddha mastered the jhanas before his awakening and found them wanting...


It seems as though he found only the arupajhanas wanting; rupajhana is his own development from his childhood experience, and this he found quite conducive, going so far as to name 1/8th of the Path for them.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:13 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Let us not forget, however, that the Buddha mastered the jhanas before his awakening and found them wanting...


It seems as though he found only the arupajhanas wanting; rupajhana is his own development from his childhood experience, and this he found quite conducive, going so far as to name 1/8th of the Path for them.
The eighth factor is Right Samadhi. Jhanas are a tool, but what is unique to the Buddha's teachings, what is the driving engine is mindfulness. It is mindfulness with concentration that gives us access to and insight into the rise and fall as it happens.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Let us not forget, however, that the Buddha mastered the jhanas before his awakening and found them wanting...


It seems as though he found only the arupajhanas wanting; rupajhana is his own development from his childhood experience, and this he found quite conducive, going so far as to name 1/8th of the Path for them.
The eighth factor is Right Samadhi. Jhanas are a tool, but what is unique to the Buddha's teachings, what is the driving engine is mindfulness. It is mindfulness with concentration that gives us access to and insight into the rise and fall as it happens.


sammasati --> sammasamadhi --> right knowledge --> right liberation

So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur. Another way of saying this would be:

satipatthana --> rupajhana --> ...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:12 pm

daverupa wrote:So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.
The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby reflection » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:45 pm

Hi all,

My 2 cents.

Thoughts are a form of fabrication, so to try and find out the non-self of them by thinking it out is like trying to fight fire with fire. It only makes it worse. ;) Of course contemplation is not bad, even useful at times, but insights are to be found behind the conceptual level of thoughts. So one of the things in meditation should be to quiet the mind down. Then one can start to see the "fall" of thoughts and from that experience start to see their non-self. Knowing this more clearly, the mind automatically becomes more silent. So then thoughts can be gone for even longer periods of time.

The same with the other aggregates. You can't concentrate and suddenly decide: Now I'm going to experience the falling away of form, the senses, vedana etc. This happens BECAUSE of the deepened concentration. Then afterward can you reflect on them passing away, not before. So I'm with Ajahn Chah on this one: Satipattana and anapanasati work in unison and aren't really separate things, they are the same.

It's not like one day you are the worst meditatior in the world and the next day you know everything and are totally calm. Apart from the stages of enlightenment, it is mostly a gradual path with insight and calm supporting each other.
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:52 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


As much as needed.

For some a split second momentary samādhi may be enough. Some other people may need 2-3 or even more hours in deep samādhi. So if former doesn't work, maybe the latter option will. Just because for someone a split second momentary concentrated citta was enough, doesn't mean that it will be enough for all others.

Maybe something similar with "depth" of concentration. If light absorption doesn't do it, then perhaps heavy will.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.
The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


That's an ill-framed question, as apprehending rise and fall is a continuous training that becomes easier and more comprehensive the more one develops samadhi.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:13 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:So yes, without sammasati the other links cannot occur, but without sammasamadhi, so too the remaining links cannot occur.
The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


That's an ill-framed question, as apprehending rise and fall is a continuous training that becomes easier and more comprehensive the more one develops samadhi.
It is very much to the point when one is talking about all this jhana stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby daverupa » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:12 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


As I said, this is an ill-framed question, the problem I see now bolded. I'm not saying it's not to the point, I'm saying it's presuming that the answer is quantifiable in a particular way, and it is this presumption with which I disagree.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:05 am

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


As I said, this is an ill-framed question, the problem I see now bolded. I'm not saying it's not to the point, I'm saying it's presuming that the answer is quantifiable in a particular way, and it is this presumption with which I disagree.

:heart:
And as I said, it to the point. If the issue is not quantifiable then the all of this debate goes away, which would be a good thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:04 am

Getting back to Alex's initial post about "rise & fall" and whether discursive thinking is used. The way I understand things is that jhana as taught in the suttas is actually developed through insight/understanding of one or more aspects of the Buddha's Dhamma. From within jhana the rise & fall of events is clearly discerned. This type of jhana is specific to the Buddha's dispensation as it has right view as one of its causes.

An example of discursive thinking leading to penetration is here.....................

"Monks, there is a four-phrased statement that, when it is recited, a wise man will in no long time learn the meaning through discernment. I will recite it, and you learn it from me.".............................................
..........
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

Such an approach as above obviously requires a degree of familiarisation with and acceptance of the Buddha's teachings and building upon that the Buddha's fourfold statement when contemplated would/could give rise to great joy/delight/gladness the building blocks of Buddhist meditation.

The suttas are littered with such instructions, with no recourse to actual techniques.
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:29 am

legolas wrote:An example of discursive thinking leading to penetration is here.....................

"Monks, there is a four-phrased statement that, when it is recited, a wise man will in no long time learn the meaning through discernment. I will recite it, and you learn it from me.".............................................
..........
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

Such an approach as above obviously requires a degree of familiarisation with and acceptance of the Buddha's teachings and building upon that the Buddha's fourfold statement when contemplated would/could give rise to great joy/delight/gladness the building blocks of Buddhist meditation.

The suttas are littered with such instructions, with no recourse to actual techniques.
It is quite unclear what your point is here.

Also, please address: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8745&start=20#p137175
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:An example of discursive thinking leading to penetration is here.....................

"Monks, there is a four-phrased statement that, when it is recited, a wise man will in no long time learn the meaning through discernment. I will recite it, and you learn it from me.".............................................
..........
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

Such an approach as above obviously requires a degree of familiarisation with and acceptance of the Buddha's teachings and building upon that the Buddha's fourfold statement when contemplated would/could give rise to great joy/delight/gladness the building blocks of Buddhist meditation.

The suttas are littered with such instructions, with no recourse to actual techniques.
It is quite unclear what your point is here.

Also, please address: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p137175


I think you are being very obtuse if you are still unclear - my point is that discursive thinking is vital in Buddhist meditation/jhana, which is vital in seeing "rise & fall".

Tilt you stated...
And, of course, the "vipassana jhanas" should not be dismissed.


also...
"Noting is an an aid for cultivating concentration and awareness, but what it does not do, when done properly, is "result in suppression."


For which I asked for a sutta reference ( saying it is not a doctrinal issue does not really cut the mustard).

As I have been informed you cannot make statements without referencing (this is especially true in the sutta meditation section). If you can supply me with references to vipassana jhana & "noting" it would be greatly appreciated.

[EDIT: Meta-discussion removed. Retro.]

Metta

:namaste:
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:08 am

legolas wrote:Since this is a sutta meditation forum, could you please supply sutta references to support the "noting" method?


IMO the Satipatthana Sutta is full of them.

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:46 am

And see Geoff's (Ñāṇa's) posts relevant to the "vipassana jhana" with different types of objects, different types of concentration:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p135248
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p135283

It would be interesting to hear more about how "rise and fall" is experienced when using this approach:
legolas wrote:Getting back to Alex's initial post about "rise & fall" and whether discursive thinking is used. The way I understand things is that jhana as taught in the suttas is actually developed through insight/understanding of one or more aspects of the Buddha's Dhamma. From within jhana the rise & fall of events is clearly discerned.


I discussed my perspective here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p136882
and provided some sutta references here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p136936
But the key reference, as Spiny says is the Satipatthana Sutta.
Noone is saying that it can be done without developing considerable concentration and mindfulness. In fact, I said in the first link just above.

Since this is supposed to be a Meditation Forum, it would be good if we could stick to discussing how our experience matches our understanding of the suttas, rather than continually getting sidetracked into arguing about the different interpretations of the suttas.

:anjali:
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:46 am

legolas wrote:I think you are being very obtuse if you are still unclear - my point is that discursive thinking is vital in Buddhist meditation/jhana, which is vital in seeing "rise & fall".

Tilt you stated...
And, of course, the "vipassana jhanas" should not be dismissed.


also...
"Noting is an an aid for cultivating concentration and awareness, but what it does not do, when done properly, is "result in suppression."
No doubt, but it is not at all clear what you are advocating as a practice.

For which I asked for a sutta reference ( saying it is not a doctrinal issue does not really cut the mustard).
MN 10.

As I have been informed you cannot make statements without referencing (this is especially true in the sutta meditation section). If you can supply me with references to vipassana jhana & "noting" it would be greatly appreciated.
We have already had that discussion, but depending upon whose interpretaion of jhana you are using, vipassana could easily be seen as referring to the type of jhanas talked about in the suttas as opposed the the heavily absorbed jhanas of the commentaries.

Also, there several questions in this thread you have ignored: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8745&start=20#p137175 please address them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


Good question, and one on which there clearly isn't a concensus. Perhaps it's ultimately one of those questions which we have to resolve for ourselves through practice?

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 am

I would like to ask the gentlemen here to consider that jhanas (the absorbed type) can arise from both samatha AND vipassana. Sati leads to samadhi. The presence or absence of panna is the difference. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who wasn't able to give rise to jhana. There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas - without the 'samatha' or 'vipassana' qualification.

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:14 am

Greetings RYB,

That makes sense to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:32 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: how much samadhi is actually necessary for the apprehension of "rise and fall"?


Good question, and one on which there clearly isn't a concensus. Perhaps it's ultimately one of those questions which we have to resolve for ourselves through practice?

Spiny
Absolutely.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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