Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Post Reply
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by gavesako »

You may have heard the phrase "84,000 dhammakkhandha" (Dhamma teachings) which is the traditional Theravada description of the complete Buddha's Teaching. Of course in the commentaries (atthakatha) it is explained in this way, which cannot be historically true:

Sutta pitaka = 21,000 dhammakkhandhas
Vinaya pitaka = 21,000 dhammakkhandhas
Abhidhamma pitaka = 42,000 dhammakkhandhas

See also http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/tobudha4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (at the bottom)

When we search in the Tipitaka, we can find only 2 places where it occurs:
http://openpali.worldtipitaka.org/word_ ... habet=#top" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is the Theragatha text that belongs to the "early part" of the Tipitaka. The Buddha himself does not use this term, but Ananda mentions it in his verses:

1027. Dvāsīti buddhato gaṇhiṃ,
dve sahassāni bhikkhuto;
Caturāsītisahassāni,
ye me dhammā pavattino.

http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipita ... 7.1/17.1.3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


82,000 (teachings) from the Buddha I have received;
2,000 more from his disciples;
Now 84,000 teachings are familiar to me.

— the Venerable Ananda,
in Theragatha 17.3 (vv. 1024-29)


Thai version:

พระอานนทเถระได้เรียนธรรมจาก พระพุทธเจ้ามา ๘๒,๐๐๐ ธรรมขันธ์ ได้เรียนมาจากสำนักภิกษุมีพระธรรม
เสนาบดีเป็นต้น ๒,๐๐๐ ธรรมขันธ์ จึงรวมเป็นที่คล่องปากขึ้นใจ๘๔,๐๐๐ ธรรมขันธ์

http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka2/v ... 134&Z=8214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If we look at the original Pali text, only the numbers 82,000 and 2,000 and 84,000 are mentioned in it, together with "dhamma" meaning "teachings" in this context (the word "dhammakkhandha" does not appear at all).


15. In the Theragatha (v. 1024) Venerable Ananda says that he knew 82,000 of the Buddha's discourses as well as 2,000 by the monks. This works out, over a vigorous forty-five year ministry, to nearly five discourses a day. This is sizable, but many of them are but a few lines, so it is not impossible. However, we should bear in mind that the numerical precision so highly valued in Western culture has been and still is of little importance in Indian culture: these figures are best understood as "a very great many". In India a different sort of precision -- Ananda's -- was valued. (See A. X,95 (v,193-5).)
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/be ... in2.htm#15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That means all the Dhamma teachings remembered by Ananda, as he recited them at the First Sangayana, or we could call it the "original Sutta texts" before more texts have been added later. We can regard these as the authentic teachings, some of them words of the Buddha (buddhavacana) and some of them the words of direct disciples of the Buddha (e.g. Theragatha, Therigatha, and the Suttas spoken by Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda, Kaccayana, Dhammadinna, etc.).
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by Kim OHara »

I'm no expert, bhante, but any time I see such improbably large numbers I think (1) metaphorical use and (2) later additions to the scriptures.
As for the 'five discourses a day for forty five years', that seems inherently improbable and is quite hard to reconcile with my understanding that the suttas, as we have them, are distillations or condensed versions of the Buddha's actual teachings so that 'only a few lines' may represent and summarise a much longer conversation or teaching.
I'm quite comfortable leaving it at that, i.e. not taking it literally and not giving it much weight. There are many many more teachings which are more important for me to think about.

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17192
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by DNS »

gavesako wrote:You may have heard the phrase "84,000 dhammakkhandha" (Dhamma teachings) which is the traditional Theravada description of the complete Buddha's Teaching. Of course in the commentaries (atthakatha) it is explained in this way, which cannot be historically true:

Sutta pitaka = 21,000 dhammakkhandhas
Vinaya pitaka = 21,000 dhammakkhandhas
Abhidhamma pitaka = 42,000 dhammakkhandhas
Hi Bhante,

Thanks for this research / information. It appears the Commentators wanted to place a great deal of importance to the Abhidhamma.
That means all the Dhamma teachings remembered by Ananda, as he recited them at the First Sangayana, or we could call it the "original Sutta texts" before more texts have been added later. We can regard these as the authentic teachings, some of them words of the Buddha (buddhavacana) and some of them the words of direct disciples of the Buddha (e.g. Theragatha, Therigatha, and the Suttas spoken by Sariputta, Moggallana, Ananda, Kaccayana, Dhammadinna, etc.).
:thumbsup: Certainly, we can count on the Suttas, especially the first four Nikayas and the Patikmokkha as the most essential and authentic.
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by Sanghamitta »

As a side bar issue, what concerns me about the use of the concept is that it can become very sloppy. One sees it used on Buddhist websights to justify a whole range of practices and views as Buddha Dhamma...I have seen kundalini yoga, crystal healing, Osho etc all jusified in the name of the " 84.000 gates ".
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sanghamitta,
Sanghamitta wrote:As a side bar issue, what concerns me about the use of the concept is that it can become very sloppy. One sees it used on Buddhist websights to justify a whole range of practices and views as Buddha Dhamma...I have seen kundalini yoga, crystal healing, Osho etc all jusified in the name of the " 84.000 gates ".
Actually, I think that's something different again, with only the trademark 84,000 in common.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Certainly. As I said, a sidebar.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
steve19800
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas?

Post by steve19800 »

May I wake this thread up again?

Buddha teaching has been surviving for more than 2600 years. Recently another Words of Buddha were found therefore translation is occurring at this moment.

The Buddha taught more than 84,000 methods to attain true peace and freedom from suffering. Of these teachings, only 5% have been translated into modern languages....

More details please visit: http://84000.co/
Post Reply