And see Geoff's (Ñāṇa's) posts relevant to the "vipassana jhana" with different types of objects, different types of concentration:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p135248" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p135283" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It would be interesting to hear more about how "rise and fall" is experienced when using this approach:
legolas wrote:Getting back to Alex's initial post about "rise & fall" and whether discursive thinking is used. The way I understand things is that jhana as taught in the suttas is actually developed through insight/understanding of one or more aspects of the Buddha's Dhamma. From within jhana the rise & fall of events is clearly discerned.
I discussed my perspective here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p136882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and provided some sutta references here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 45#p136936" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the key reference, as Spiny says is the Satipatthana Sutta.
Noone is saying that it can be done without developing
considerable concentration and mindfulness. In fact, I said in the first link just above.
Since this is supposed to be a Meditation Forum, it would be good if we could stick to discussing how our experience matches our understanding of the suttas, rather than continually getting sidetracked into arguing about the different
interpretations of the suttas.
Mike